Closest modern pops to ANE?

[Maguzanci]

As you can see in your runs, ANE is about as close to Udmurts as Swedes are to Turkmen. So not close at all, but yes they are the closest.


More or less, yes. They have the lowest EEF of Europe.

I see. Why are Native Americans so faraway from the ANE in terms of distance runs? Is it because of drift and their heavy East Eurasian ancestry that pulls them further away?

Do you know how much ANE do Uralics have? Is it possible for them to be less than 10% EEF/Anatolian?

Do Yamnaya and other Steppe pastoralists have less EEF than Uralics?

Is it possible to model Amerindians with EHG (I heard that they are mostly ANE+significant WHG) or Sungir/Kostenki using qpAdm?

[Token]

I see. Why are Native Americans so faraway from the ANE in terms of distance runs? Is it because of drift and their heavy East Eurasian ancestry that pulls them further away?

A combination of both. Results wielded by G25 are hardly meaningful for Amerindians though, because G25 is too drift-sensible (it was made with the main purpose of looking at very fine-scale, intra-European substructure). Wonder why Davidski never uses G25 to deal with ancients.

Do you know how much ANE do Uralics have? Is it possible for them to be less than 10% EEF/Anatolian?

It depends on the Uralic. Mansi have as much as Amerindians, while Nganassans in far east Siberia have close to nil.

[Token]

Do Yamnaya and other Steppe pastoralists have less EEF than Uralics?

Yes if by Uralics you mean Finns and Saami.

Is it possible to model Amerindians with EHG (I heard that they are mostly ANE+significant WHG) or Sungir/Kostenki using qpAdm?

I've never tried, but my intuition as a qpAdm user tells me it is not. There is no need to further complicate matters though, we are sure Amerindians are a simple Paleosiberian + MA1 mixture and this hypothesis rests on firm statistical grounds.

[Maguzanci]

Yes if by Uralics you mean Finns and Saami.


I've never tried, but my intuition as a qpAdm user tells me it is not. There is no need to further complicate matters though, we are sure Amerindians are a very simple Paleosiberian + MA1 admixture and this hypothesis rests on firm statistical grounds.

I C. No Im thinking more of Mari, Udmurt. Would Udmurt, Saami have less EEF than Yamnaya and other Steppe peoples?

Thanks for clarifying. Why haven't there been more research into the genomics and formation of ANE though? Like i noticed a lot of people still seem to be confused whether ANE is ancient West Eurasian, East Eurasian or its own unique cluster. And many ppl still thinks Amerindians don't have West Eurasian ancestry (in other words assuming that they are 100% East Eurasian)?

Also I have ask this question many times before but never get an answer: do Amerinds have similar amounts of West Eurasian as the Altaians and Kyrgyz? Also the reason they are plotted more eastern shifted than these two pops in a PCA is due to genetic drift?

[Maguzanci]

A combination of both. Results wielded by G25 are hardly meaningful for Amerindians though, because G25 is too drift-sensible (it was made with the main purpose of looking at very fine-scale, intra-European substructure). Wonder why Davidski never uses G25 to deal with ancients.


It depends on the Uralic. Mansi have as much as Amerindians, while Nganassans in far east Siberia have close to nil.

Ok. Make sense. David never use them for ancient?

How about Saami, Udmurt, Mari? 30-35% ANE?

[Token]

I C. No Im thinking more of Mari, Udmurt. Would Udmurt, Saami have less EEF than Yamnaya and other Steppe peoples?

Yamnaya had about 10% EEF. Saami and Udmurt have about the same as can be seen here.

Thanks for clarifying. Why haven't there been more research into the genomics and formation of ANE though?

What is there to be seen? Testing archeological samples and making a paper about it is no cheap stuff.

Like i noticed a lot of people still seem to be confused whether ANE is ancient West Eurasian, East Eurasian or its own unique cluster.

These people haven't read the papers. It is clear that ANE is overwhelmingly derived from a clade basal to Kostenki14 and Sunghir, with an additional of 20% East Eurasian admixture related to Tianyuan.

And many ppl still thinks Amerindians don't have West Eurasian ancestry (in other words assuming that they are 100% East Eurasian)?

So what? These people are simply ignorant about genetics as 99% of the world.

Also I have ask this question many times before but never get an answer: do Amerinds have similar amounts of West Eurasian as the Altaians and Kyrgyz?

I've never looked close into the West Eurasian ancestry of Altaians and Kyrgyz. If they have about 30% West Eurasian, then yes.

Also the reason they are plotted more eastern shifted than these two pops in a PCA is due to genetic drift?

The position of Amerindians in a Global25 PCA is meaningless due to the reasons mentioned before.

[Token]

Ok. Make sense. David never use them for ancient?

No, it was never the purpose of Global25 to test hypotheses involving prehistoric samples.

How about Saami, Udmurt, Mari? 30-35% ANE?

Open the qpAdm spreadsheet that i linked in my post above, multiply the Yamnaya percentage of Udmurts and Saami by the amount of ANE in Yamnaya, and there you have it. Pretty sure it is far less than 30%.

[Maguzanci]

Yamnaya had about 10% EEF. Saami and Udmurt have about the same as can be seen here.

Doesn't Koros_HG contain some EEF though? Wouldn't that hide or decrease some more EEF that Saami and Udmurt might have? But this qpAdm also use Yamnaya (around 10% EEF as you have noted) as a source/parent pop for Europeans, wouldn't that also decrease the EEF for Euros including Uralics?

What is there to be seen? Testing archeological samples and making a paper about it is no cheap stuff.

Alright. That makes sense.

These people haven't read the papers. It is clear that ANE is overwhelmingly derived from a clade basal to Kostenki14 and Sunghir, with an additional of 20% East Eurasian admixture related to Tianyuan.

I see. What's the closest modern day population to Kostenki14 and Sunghir? If I remember ANE have slightly more East Eurasian than that- at 25%?

So what? These people are simply ignorant about genetics as 99% of the world.

You are right.

I've never looked close into the West Eurasian ancestry of Altaians and Kyrgyz. If they have about 30% West Eurasian, then yes.

Thanks. I have been asking this question to many people and none ever answer me. Well Altaians are around 25% West Eurasian while Kyrgyz are around 30%. So I guess Amerindians will actually plot close to them if the PCA is not affected by drift and other factors.

The position of Amerindians in a Global25 PCA is meaningless due to the reasons mentioned before.

I see. Thanks for your clarification of this issue. Is it possible to create a PCA using results acquired from qpAdm?

[Maguzanci]

No, it was never the purpose of Global25 to test hypotheses involving prehistoric samples.


Open the qpAdm spreadsheet that i linked in my post above, multiply the Yamnaya percentage of Udmurts and Saami by the amount of ANE in Yamnaya, and there you have it. Pretty sure it is far less than 30%.

I C. Its formal stats that are used to test prehistoric samples right? Would be great if someone can teach people how to use formal stats though but I guess its too difficult and complicated for most.

Ok. Yamnaya are around 50% ANE?

[Token]

Doesn't Koros_HG contain some EEF though? Wouldn't that hide or decrease some more EEF that Saami and Udmurt might have?

Yes but the difference would be very small anyway.

But this qpAdm also use Yamnaya as a source/parent pop for Europeans, wouldn't that also decrease the EEF for Euros including Uralics?

Yes, but it is the only steppe population that works well for Europeans. If you want very precise figures, you wil have to break down the Yamnaya and Koros_HG in deeper components (EHG, EEF, WHG, etc), which is not hard to do if you have a calculator and some free time.

I see. What's the closest modern day population to Kostenki14 and Sunghir? If I remember ANE have slightly more East Eurasian than that- at 25%?

They are firmly in the West Eurasian clade. These populations are so old that it doesn't even make sense to compare them to present-day populations, but the closest would be the West Eurasians in the northern fringes of west Eurasia since they have the least amount of Basal Eurasian admixture, considering that Kostenki14 had none.

see. Thanks for your clarification of this issue. Is it possible to create a PCA using results acquired from qpAdm?

Yes. West Eurasian PCAs with qpAdm are quite common out there, but i've never seen an East Eurasian PCA. That is in consonance with the fact that i've never seen a person using qpAdm that is not West Eurasian by ancestry. As a person of European descent, i don't care enough about East Eurasians to waste my time on such a project.