King Tut and family Y-DNA

[Rethel]

No evidence of Eurasians migrating into the Chadic region. R1b-V88 has been found as far south as Gabon among the bantu speaking Ewondo people. Explain mr know all?

We were talking about brainless use of the fraze "migrate back to Africa".

But, V88 was found in neolithic Europe and earlier on the steppe, plus all R1 exists outside Africa.
If this is not enaugh, and you belive, V88 emerged in Africa from nowhere, then I can't help you.

R1-V88 is mostly found in Africa with the oldest node found in the Chad basin.

And what is the evidence of oldest example (exept retarded maps from leftpedia)?

[billsoncreole26]

We were talking about brainless use of the fraze "migrate back to Africa".

But, V88 was found in neolithic Europe and earlier on the steppe, plus all R1 exists outside Africa.
If this is not enaugh, and you belive, V88 emerged in Africa from nowhere, then I can't help you.



And what is the evidence of oldest example (exept retarded maps from leftpedia)?

Leftpedia? lol. My info definitely isn't from Wikipedia infact leftpedia backs your claim more than anything else.

This is Cruciani’s response to Andrews Lancaster controversial retort to the study on the relationship of R-V88 and the Chadic Language in Western Africa.


What has been disclosed and admitted to by Cruiciani is that R-V88 is found several key locations IN Africa. They are the exit points.

1. Morroco.
2. Algeria/Tunisia
3. Siwa Egypt

It is also found in Regions just outside of Africa eg Bediouns of the Negev, Sardinia and Iberia…and within Afro-Iranians.

What are the plausible scenarios to explain this genetic pattern.?

1. The central source is somewhere in the African Sahel(Chad Basin) with this R-V88 population “fanning” outwards.
2. These Eurasian populations from Iberia, Sardinia and Levant migrated towards the Chadic Basin.

Which makes more sense? We all know R-V88 is older than R-M269.

In addition R-V88 has greater diversity in INNER Africa than in Morocco, Siwa and Algeria.


Reply to Lancaster by Cruiciani


European Journal of Human Genetics (2010) 18, 1186–1187; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.89; published online 23 June 2010

In January 2010, we published in this journal a report1 on the frequency distribution of theY chromosome haplogroup R1b1a (R-V88) in Africa,where it can befound at frequencies as high as about 90%.This haplogroup (or its ancestor) most likely traces its origins back to Eurasia, but ispresently found very rarely outside Africa.In our original publication,1 we describedtwo important(insert-geographic) patternsin the genotyping data. The first observation was that the highest frequencies of the R1b1a haplogroup were found among Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations from the Central Sahel, with Chadic mostly contributing to this pattern. We haveNOW extended our analysis to a further 258 unrelated male subjects from northern Cameroon (Table 1).As can be seen from Table 1, the extended data fully confirm the pattern originally observed.


The second observation was regarding a geneticcontiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the Central Sahel and several other Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups from North Africa,including
Ouarzazate Berbers from Morocco, Mozabite Berbers from Algeria, Siwa Berbers and several Semitic groups from Egypt,and, possibly, different groups from Algeria,2 Tunisia3 and Egypt,3,4 with R1b1a frequencies ranging from 1 to 3% in Algeria to about 4% in Tunisia, to26.9% in the Siwa.We interpreted these data by suggesting that they are more compatible withEhret’s hypothesis, which proposes that Chadic peoples arrived from the Norththrough the Sahara (the ‘trans- Saharan’ hypothesis),5 rather than with Blench’s theory, which states that Chadic-speaking pastoralists reached the Chad Basin through the Sahel from an eastern Sudanic Cushitic-Chadic motherland (the ‘inter-Saharan’ hypothesis).6 Considering the mitochondrial DNA, the populations from the Chad Basin also show some genetic peculiarities when compared with other populations living south of the Sahara. Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups L3f37 and L3e5,8 which are uncommon in the sub- Saharan area, were found to be relatively frequent in the Chad Basin region, with estimated coalescence ages similar to those we obtained for the Y chromosome R1b1a haplogroup. The lineage L3f3 can be traced back over the millennia to L3f,9 and this led the researchers who analyzed L3f3 from the Chad Basin7 to propose ancient links between this haplogroup and Chadic-speaking peoples coming from East or North East Africa. However,the presence in North Africa of the supposedly autochthonous Chad Basin haplogroup L3e58,10 would seem to suggest another possiblescenario, which is more compatible with the ‘trans-Saharan’ migration route.


In his Letter, Lancaster11 revisits our original dataand provides valuable comments on our paper. Following his own previous review,12 he argues thatour interpretation may have been affected by poor population coveragein relevant regions from East and North East Africa. We agree that data from those areas that are particularly important in order to discriminate between the two theories (eg, Eastern Egypt and Sudan) would be very important. As far as we are aware, there are no data for Eastern Egypt. The investigation by Hassan et al13 in Sudan fills in the map of North East Africa, at least in part, by providing Y-chromosome haplogroup data on additional relevant population samples. However, the power of these data is limited by the low level of resolution, as no R1b1 internal markers were analyzed.

Furthermore, even if one assumes that all the R1b1 Y chromosomes found in Sudan harbor the V88 mutation, there arelittle data to support the hypothesis that these chromosomes are the product of an ancient migration from the East.The highest frequencies of R1b1 chromosomes from Sudan were observed in the Hausa, a Chadic-speaking population that has migrated from the West, and in the Copts, a population group that is known to be largely the result of recent migrations from Egypt over the past two centuries.13 By contrast, only two R1b1 chromosomes were found among the Beja in Sudan,13 confirming our previous results that Chadic-speaking populations are distinguished from Cushites, at least at the Y chromosome variation level.1

In summary, currently available genetic evidence seems to favor our previous hypothesis1 that the Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a is a paternal genetic record of the proposed ‘trans-Saharan’ migration.5It will be interesting to see how the proposed pattern develops as more detailed information about the phylogeographic structure of this haplogroup and amore refined method to estimate coalescence times become available.

Daniel Shriner - Center for Research on Genomics and Global Health

"We found no evidence for migration of Near Eastern farmers or any ancient
Episodes involving Eurasian backflow"


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[Rethel]

It is actually hard to get, what is your point in disccussion. What you want to prove?

That V88 appeared in Africa from nowhere?
That R1 is from Africa?

Tell, only shortly.

And I repeat my question: what is the evidence of oldest example in Africa??

[Ülev]

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...8;t=009619;p=2

[billsoncreole26]

It is actually hard to get, what is your point in disccussion. What you want to prove?

That V88 appeared in Africa from nowhere?
That R1 is from Africa?

Tell, only shortly.

And I repeat my question: what is the evidence of oldest example in Africa??

Where's the proof of a Eurasian migration into the Chad Basin? Answer that. Yet you say R1 is proof enough. So a bunch of magical wandering Caucasoids crossed the Sahara all the way into modern day Cameroon/Nigeria but SSA couldn't migrate on a continent they've been living on for tens of thousand of years. Sounds ridiculous to me. R1b-V88 is found at very low rates outside Africa.

I'm not saying that i truely know where it originates from, however i am questioning the fact that the theory of a Eurasian migration into the Chad Basin isn't backed by hard evidence. Some geneticists believe it originated from Iberia, yet that theory has flaws while others claim it entered through Egypt, R1b isn't even that common in North Africa and only peaks amongst Siwa Berbers in the region. So you're suggesting that those ancient R carriers from Eurasia bypassed North Africa and just left their inprint in SSA?



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[celticdragongod]

How back?
Do you suggest, that R1b-V88 was previously in Egypt, then migriated to Europe and next to Egypt again?

I think he means that V88 originated in Europe or Asia then migrated to Africa. Since the human species originated in Africa this would be referred to as a back migration even though V88 itself did not originate in Africa.

[celticdragongod]

Where's the proof of a Eurasian migration into the Chad Basin? Answer that. Yet you say R1 is proof enough. So a bunch of magical wandering Caucasoids crossed the Sahara all the way into modern day Cameroon/Nigeria but SSA couldn't migrate on a continent they've been living on for tens of thousand of years. Sounds ridiculous to me. R1b-V88 is found at very low rates outside Africa.

I'm not saying that i truely know where it originates from, however i am questioning the fact that the theory of a Eurasian migration into the Chad Basin isn't backed by hard evidence. Some geneticists believe it originated from Iberia, yet that theory has flaws while others claim it entered through Egypt, R1b isn't even that common in North Africa and only peaks amongst Siwa Berbers in the region. So you're suggesting that those ancient R carriers from Eurasia bypassed North Africa and just left their inprint in SSA?



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R1b did not originate in Africa. V88 most likely originated in Europe or Asia before moving to Africa.

[ShieldWolf]

If you don't know, why did you rate it down?

I wrote about this, that your claim, that R1b migrated back to Egypt is sensless and delusional, as R1b never had
lived before in Egypt or Africa. It only witnessed, how you're brainwashed - so much, that you can't say normaly
"R1b migrated to Africa" without using the word back. Admit mistake and do not play a foul.

You're an idiot.