Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

[xripkan]

lol? Marcianoplis, Philipopolis etc.

Which is the BA Anatolian/Caucasian input from these settlements? Because I think it is Mycenaean-like input.

[War Chef]

Which is the BA Anatolian/Caucasian input from these settlements? Because I think it is Mycenaean-like input.

Nope, most Byzantines were Syrian, Armenian & Anatolian transplants to the Balkans.

[xripkan]

Nope, most Byzantines were Syrian, Armenian & Anatolian transplants to the Balkans.

These cities were not Byzantine settlements. Some of them were ancient Greek and other just hellenized.

[Abriekman]

Not really, because the same goes for the rest of South Slavs. We need something to make Bulgarians special compared to the rest, yet there is no except known "Eastern" shift.

What about Turkic? Do Bulgarians have higher in comprasion to Yugoslavs?

[xripkan]

I made a model using just Avar Szolad and BGR IA

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2724% / 0.02272392
52.4 BGR_IA
47.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

I made a reference with exactly 52.4% BGR IA and 47.6% Avar Szolad. I named it Thracian-Slav
These are the closest populations for Thracian-Slav

0.01993818 Macedonian
0.02040195 Romanian
0.02088700 Italian_Northeast
0.02260415 Serbian
0.02272392 Bulgarian
0.02293999 Montenegrin
0.02890949 Italian_Veneto
0.03035555 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03176797 Gagauz
0.03417275 Moldovan
0.03591176 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03651171 Albanian
0.03664630 Bosnian
0.03674883 Swiss_Italian
0.03703217 French_Provence
0.03734827 Italian_Bergamo
0.03904505 Italian_Piedmont
0.03906611 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04136126 Swiss_French
0.04238503 French_Alsace
0.04247746 Italian_Liguria
0.04276696 Greek_Thessaly
0.04285293 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04327289 French_Auvergne
0.04351177 Croatian

I subtracted 80% Thracian-Slav from Bulgarian reference

The closest populations

0.07837091 ARM_LBA
0.07922852 RUS_Alan_MA
0.08028020 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.08265626 ARM_MBA
0.08327337 TUR_IA
0.08443909 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.08477210 ARM_Areni_C
0.08482287 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.08566588 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.08851319 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.08954767 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.09006995 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
0.09047558 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.09093968 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.09374134 Scythian_MDA
0.09453393 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.09484359 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.09564467 HUN_Avar_Period
0.09638623 RUS_Maykop
0.09649750 Scythian_UKR
0.09659849 Yamnaya_BGR
0.09702725 IND_Roopkund_B
0.09727252 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.09739923 HUN_Prescythian_IA
0.09784075 DEU_MA_ACD

and modern

0.06705009 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07178474 Turkish_Rumeli
0.07254896 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07312320 Roma_Madrid
0.07498794 Roma_Porto
0.07555123 Kabardin
0.07587597 Kumyk
0.07626719 Roma_Bilbao
0.07773398 Roma_Barcelona
0.07831464 Cherkes
0.07842341 Roma_Granada
0.07921137 Turkish_Adana
0.07945745 Azeri_Dagestan
0.07983376 Roma_Balkans
0.07989973 Circassian
0.08026525 Turkish_Northwest
0.08036229 Karachay
0.08092535 Turkish_Central
0.08112781 Turkish_Balikesir
0.08263482 Balkar
0.08298067 Turkish_North
0.08354314 Abazin
0.08384533 Turkish_Kayseri
0.08465143 Turkish_Southwest
0.08518015 Adygei

If I subtract 85% this is what I get

0.08966963 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.09082353 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
0.09238898 ARM_LBA
0.09473477 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.09542523 RUS_Alan_MA
0.09642162 ARM_MBA
0.09671868 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.09704644 TUR_IA
0.09736784 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.09874768 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.10486261 RUS_Maykop
0.10560179 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.10618091 ARM_Areni_C
0.10675263 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.10774849 KAZ_Turk_o
0.10897039 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.10917836 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.10946460 TKM_IA
0.11034396 Saka_Tian_Shan_o
0.11094016 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.11316474 PAK_Udegram_MA_Ghaznavid
0.11607173 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
0.11610880 RUS_Maykop_Late
0.11712425 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.11728130 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res

0.08441165 Roma_Balkans
0.08741504 Kabardin
0.08824075 Roma_Porto
0.08846732 Kumyk
0.08919253 Karachay
0.08929272 Azeri_Dagestan
0.08938476 Cherkes
0.09010662 Circassian
0.09049664 Roma_Granada
0.09128865 Roma_Bilbao
0.09140602 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09167237 Balkar
0.09182314 Turkish_Istanbul
0.09230739 Abazin
0.09311667 Iranian_Fars
0.09449664 Turkish_Adana
0.09515905 Iranian_Seyyed
0.09517031 Roma_Madrid
0.09523831 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.09557587 Turkish_Northwest
0.09566342 Parsi_Pakistan
0.09606174 Turkish_Central
0.09619138 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.09631636 Ingushian
0.09646986 Adygei


For 75% subtraction

0.07346181 Scythian_MDA
0.07419058 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.07652350 HUN_Avar_Period
0.07687431 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.07718079 RUS_Alan_MA
0.07746326 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.07799211 ARM_LBA
0.07812069 DEU_MA_ACD
0.07816948 ARM_Areni_C
0.07883251 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.08091054 IND_Roopkund_B
0.08120716 Yamnaya_BGR
0.08203668 ARM_MBA
0.08238693 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.08259129 TUR_IA
0.08340466 Scythian_UKR
0.08498893 HUN_Prescythian_IA
0.08557093 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.08602403 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.08622943 ITA_Rome_MA
0.08782054 HUN_MA
0.08792319 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.08898316 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.08898776 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
0.08959213 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.05306103 Turkish_Deliorman
0.05596177 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05925582 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06412009 Roma_Barcelona
0.06445014 Gagauz
0.06706544 Roma_Madrid
0.06817176 Bulgarian
0.07465464 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.07538396 Romanian
0.07538916 Roma_Bilbao
0.07551325 Roma_Porto
0.07571750 Moldovan
0.07650794 Macedonian
0.07676317 Kumyk
0.07697373 Kabardin
0.07783534 Turkish_Adana
0.07808046 Albanian
0.07831509 Serbian
0.07841589 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07876656 Turkish_Northwest
0.07883585 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07904118 Greek_Thessaly
0.07939514 Roma_Granada
0.07948930 Turkish_Central
0.07997697 Cherkes

If anyone is interested I can post the coordinates.

[Zoro]

You guys really need to get together with someone who is proficient in running qpAdm because I’m betting that most of these so called G25 models will fail when put to the test

[bained]

The guy in the video I posted is sharing information from Reich. He said Bulgars are 50% Caucasus 50% late scytho-alanic with closest to Moldovan scythians and alans. Idk why is it so mindblowing to you. The Bulgars lived in the area, of course they will be related to the neighboring populations. If you consider the Armenian chronicles, they lived in the Caucasus for 400 years before migrating west. While the guy on the video wishes there are elites from sibir or altai, he specifically says there are no samples yet with eastern dna. So, turkic theory is dead once and for all. Slavic theory is on its last legs, wonder how will they spin the I2a1 found in EBA https://proizhod.nauka.bg/2020/10/06/news/ . He even says that the slavs on the balkans are from scythian hungary, which were absorbed by slavs before migrating.( wow, just wow). He reccomends using Byzantine and Late roman samples, not Iron age Bulgaria, because there are 1000 years of time difference.

[Vishap]

How do we know it's not influence from Anatolian Greeks? Do we also need these "Irano-Caucasian" components when modeling the neighbors of Bulgarians like North Greeks, South Romanians, and Serbs?

Also, it's "Caucasian", not "Irano-Caucasian". All groups in that region had similar genetics regardless of the language that they spoke. They spoke Turkic language and Turkic doesn't only refer to Proto-Turks, so "Turko-Caucasian" is more accurate.

They spoke Iranic languages. It's possible that some layers of the confederate elite spoke Turkic, but apparently the bulk of them were Iranic speakers.

[Kaspias]

Greek Macedonians score high Alan because they need a West Asian element to be modelled. What I think is that Balkans and even more Eastern Balkans have Scytho-Sarmatian ancestry. So if Proto-Bulgars were similar to these people, we can find such admixture in Balkans.

Check the BGR_MLBA. When you mix it with Balkan_C, you get the HRV_IA. When you mix HRV_IA with Mycen, you get the BGR_IA. Create such a mix, then model it with Avar_Szolad, Anatolian Greek, Mycen. This is the best you can get on Balkaners.

Here I did it by adding Alan and Khazar:







I doubt Alan and Turk means anything in this case.

[Token]

You guys really need to get together with someone who is proficient in running qpAdm because I’m betting that most of these so called G25 models will fail when put to the test

It is not even possible to model most Balkanites with qpAdm at the moment, and i've spent nights trying. The only one that worked were Bulgarians (with BGR_IA + Slavic) and Greeks (with Myceanaean + Slavic), but even then the fits were quite poor because there was probably some admixture events with Anatolians in Byzantine era. All of the others failed (i've not tried Serbians though), because the samples are insufficient atm. Not even Croatians could be modelled using the avaiable local samples, and i've tried all possible scenarios that you can imagine. So pretty much all of the models we see in this thread are utter failures.