Phenotypes from Cork Ireland

[MINARDOWICZ]

You may be right about English vs Irish. But Germans are not actually closer. I just explained how a synthetic shift occurs. Go look at the component scores on a Brit, a German, a Spaniard, and a North Italian. Notice how southern components are Italian-like in Germans and Iberian- like in Brits and French (who are between Brits and Iberians. Neolithic Brits were close to Basque, btw. Not all Neolithic populations were like that. I have the kits, btw.


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[Grace O'Malley]

You may be right about English vs Irish. But Germans are not actually closer. I just explained how a synthetic shift occurs. Go look at the component scores on a Brit, a German, a Spaniard, and a North Italian. Notice how southern components are Italian-like in Germans and Iberian- like in Brits and French (who are between Brits and Iberians. Neolithic Brits were close to Basque, btw. Not all Neolithic populations were like that. I have the kits, btw.


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Not much point talking about the Neolithic populations in the British Isles today because most Irish and British don't descend from Neolithic British. Even the Irish Neolithic is not linked to Iberia directly due to lack of Magdalenian HGs in the Irish Farmers.

Here's some interesting bits from Cassidy's thesis which I managed to get before the embargo was placed on it until 2023.

Regarding HGs.

However, a notable exception is the Palaeolithic sample from El Miron in Spain, belonging to the Magdalenian culture, who, within a majority “red” background, possesses a mosaic of components that dominate in diverse modern populations, such as Papuans, East Asians and Indians. This noisy signal is likely to represent deep pre-glacial population structure between Iberian refugia populations and those further east in Italy and the Balkans (Fu et al. 2016). The signature is also seen to a lesser extent in the earliest Mesolithic sample of the region, but disappears in later Spanish samples. Importantly, Irish Mesolithic individuals do not show any detectable level of this ancestry, displaying profiles more similar to Palaeolithic samples from Switzerland and Italy.

In terms of relationships to earlier hunter-gatherer groups, the Mesolithic Irish appear more similar to Italian and Swiss individuals from the Epigravettian and Azilian cultures, rather than the Iberian Magdalenian and later Mesolithic. This suggests the post-glacial colonisation of the island did not occur from a purely Iberian refugia, although these interpretations, based solely on PCA analysis, will be revisited in greater detail in Chapter Three. Importantly, no early Mesolithic samples from Ireland are available, and the possibility of demographic discontinuity within this period cannot be ruled out.

First Farmers to Britain and Ireland appear to be from Brittany.

Northeastern France (Calais-Picardy) provides the most popular candidate homeland for Ireland andBritain’s first farmers (Cunliffe 2013; Mallory 2013). Strong parallels are seen between the Neolithic of southeastern Britain and the continental Michelsberg and Chasséen cultures across the channel (Fig. 3.1C), which share similar round-bottom Carinated Bowl pottery, domesticated faunal assemblages and flint leaf-shaped arrowheads (Whittle 2007; Cunliffe 2013). Carinated Bowls are most abundant along the eastern seaboard of Britain, though they are ubiquitous across the Neolithic of both islands, as are the characteristic arrowheads. Another component of the Neolithic package in Britain and Ireland that has clear connections with northern continental traditions are the large rectangular timber houses that first appear a few generations after pottery and domesticates in southeast England (Sheridan 2013; Cummings 2017). In Ireland, this so-called ‘housing horizon’ begins no earlier than 3,720–3,680 cal BC (Whitehouse et al. 2014; McLaughlin et al. 2016), accompanied by the appearance of cereals. Together, such material culture has been grouped under the the blanket term ‘Carinated Bowl Neolithic’ (Sheridan 2010), and is proposed to have spread along the east coast of Britain, before penetrating into Scotland and crossing over to Northern Ireland, where it travelled southwards down the east and west coasts.

This is the bit about the Farmers and lack of Spanish EN in Irish Farmers. This type of thing will hopefully be more studied in the future.

Importantly, later Iberian samples show increased haplotypic and allelic input from the Spanish EN, relative to Irish individuals. This, together with the clear lack of Spanish HG ancestry in the Irish Neolithic (though again potential outliers, such as MillinBay6 exist) argues against any large-scale direct contribution from Iberian populations to the island, via the Atlantic. From an archaeological perspective it is more likely that the Mediterranean-type ancestry within the Irish Neolithic diverged from Spanish groups at the Golfe du Lion, where it spread both inland via the Rhône and westwards toward the coast. Furthermore, admixture with LBK and derivative groups in the north most probably took place, suggested by the increased haplotype and allele sharing seen with LBK individuals for some Irish samples. The extent of such admixture cannot at present be estimated, but it may be partially responsible for the overall dilution of Cardial ancestry in Irish samples relative to Iberians.

It's all interesting but the Irish and British today are largely descended from the Bell Beakers of the Bronze Age who get most of the Farmer input from GAC.

These Bronze Age people went all over Europe of course but largely replaced the populations of Ireland and Britain.

Anyway will post more on this later but there is no link between British Isles populations and Iberian people other than both having farmer and Steppe people etc. This occurred all over Europe. Iberians and places like Ireland have had a different history though with Iberia having more complex history which can be shown in genetics.

The post above about how they distinguished the Farmer populations is interesting so it shows how these studies can provide interesting information.

I think this link with Iberia and Ireland and Britain started with Oppenheimer but that has now been disproven. What will be interesting in the future is the Celtic question and how much of an input they had on populations. Also other things like how much did the Norman and Viking input have on populations of the Isles.

Basques were not close to Neolithic Brits by the way. Basques are a mixture of Steppe and Farmer but lack the input from the Romans, Visigoths, Moors etc that their Spanish and Portuguese neighbours have. Basques are most similar to Bronze Age Iberians.

Anyway I love these type of discussions. There are some very interesting studies out there and more to come.

While Gedmatch and G25 are interesting and I use them a lot I would prefer to get my information from geneticists. If I would go by Gedmatch and G25 I've a big chunk of Scandinavian which I believe is more genetic affinity and also because of high Steppe.

[Creoda]

You may be right about English vs Irish. But Germans are not actually closer. I just explained how a synthetic shift occurs. Go look at the component scores on a Brit, a German, a Spaniard, and a North Italian. Notice how southern components are Italian-like in Germans and Iberian- like in Brits and French (who are between Brits and Iberians. Neolithic Brits were close to Basque, btw. Not all Neolithic populations were like that. I have the kits, btw.


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Southern and West Germans up to the Rhine are closer to Iberians than any British population is, simply because they have more Farmer blood. The only exception maybe Basque, but they're not typical Iberians, and French Basque aren't Iberian at all.

[Cristiano viejo]

Southern and West Germans up to the Rhine are closer to Iberians than any British population is, simply because they have more Farmer blood. The only exception maybe Basque, but they're not typical Iberians, and French Basque aren't Iberian at all.

Basque could not be more typical Iberians, you ignorant from the ass of the world

[Creoda]

Basque could not be more typical Iberians, you ignorant from the ass of the world

How did I know you'd pipe up, nitwit. Basques are not typical Iberians genetically, in large part because they don't have post-Iron Age MENA influence like the rest of you.

[Cristiano viejo]

How did I know you'd pipe up, nitwit. Basques are not typical Iberians genetically, in large part because they don't have post-Iron Age MENA influence like the rest of you.

Not only genetically but phenotypically.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Here. I tried to explain it in simple terms but here is MORE evidence... LOOK AT THE DAMN PERCENTAGES!!! Yes, Brits and Germans are both mainly Mesolithic, but the local Neolithic populations DID have an impact. You would have to be an imbecile to think otherwise. IT IS IN THE RESULTS BELOW:

K15 highlighted components to show Germans and N Italians share a similar relationship that Brits and Iberians have. This is an east-west difference shared from north to south. Guess what? Brits and Iberian have HIGHER Atlantic than both Germans and N Italians.

Spanish

Atlantic 36.42 Pct
West_Med 18.89 Pct
West_Asian -
East_Med 14.09 Pct

N Italian (Tyrol)

Atlantic 19.64 Pct
West_Med 20.97 Pct
West_Asian 5.9 Pct
East_Med 17 Pct

German

Atlantic 16.69 Pct
West_Med 7.84 Pct
West_Asian 3.26 Pct
East_Med 5.49 Pct

British

Atlantic 31.17 Pct
West_Med 7.82 Pct
West_Asian 2.35 Pct
East_Med 0.17 Pct

[Creoda]

Here. I tried to explain it in simple terms but here is MORE evidence... LOOK AT THE DAMN PERCENTAGES!!! Yes, Brits and Germans are both mainly Mesolithic, but the local Neolithic populations DID have an impact. You would have to be an imbecile to think otherwise. IT IS IN THE RESULTS BELOW:

K15 highlighted components to show Germans and N Italians share a similar relationship that Brits and Iberians have. This is an east-west difference shared from north to south. Guess what? Brits and Iberian have HIGHER Atlantic than both Germans and N Italians.

Spanish

Atlantic 36.42 Pct
West_Med 18.89 Pct
West_Asian -
East_Med 14.09 Pct

N Italian (Tyrol)

Atlantic 19.64 Pct
West_Med 20.97 Pct
West_Asian 5.9 Pct
East_Med 17 Pct

German

Atlantic 16.69 Pct
West_Med 7.84 Pct
West_Asian 3.26 Pct
East_Med 5.49 Pct

British

Atlantic 31.17 Pct
West_Med 7.82 Pct
West_Asian 2.35 Pct
East_Med 0.17 Pct

You are in a pre 2015/16 time-warp where these GEDmatch components based on modern groups are conclusive on their own, and Brits and Germans are 'mainly Mesolithic' - but you even disregard the overall picture from those gedmatch calculators, so I won't try to convince you any further.

[Beers]

Irish Howard Stern?

[MINARDOWICZ]

You are in a pre 2015/16 time-warp where these GEDmatch components based on modern groups are conclusive on their own, and Brits and Germans are 'mainly Mesolithic' - but you even disregard the overall picture from those gedmatch calculators, so I won't try to convince you any further.

I even said they were mainly mesolithic. However, neolithic is still and reasonably high. This goes for both Germans and Brits. They aren't Swedish, who have even less Neolithic. What I am pointing out is different neolithic population sources. I also pointed out (accurately) that there isn't a neolithic iberian affinity in Germans, but there is in Brits. They are different neolithic populations, just like you had EHG and WHG for the Mesolithic. I'm not ignorant to all of these recent findings. You guys are just ignoring obvious truths. I've seen the Mesolithic genomes, they are not like these Brits and Germans, more like 70-80% alike.

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