Genetic studies, social structure, and some inconsistencies

[Thracian]

But in real life, culture is more important than genetics, right?

In real life, no one cares about DNA or taxonomy.

I would say common values are more important. I am not sure about culture. I see every man as my follow citizen if they are loyal to our country no matter their ethnicity, religion, mother tongue and so on.

[reboun]

In real life, no one cares about DNA or taxonomy.

I would say common values are more important. I am not sure about culture. I see every man as my follow citizen if they are loyal to our country no matter their ethnicity, religion, mother tongue and so on.

The inconsistency in my mind: Obviously, my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish. However, if I a take DNA test then most probably, the test will say that I am zero or very little Turkish. This seems inconsistent to me.

[princeton90]

The inconsistency in my mind: Obviously, my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish. However, if I a take DNA test then most probably, the test will say that I am zero or very little Turkish. This seems inconsistent to me.

Those tests are not mandatory. If you believe they are inconsistent and if it is obvious that your closest DNA relatives are Turkish in those aspects, you may not take a test.

[Thracian]

The inconsistency in my mind: Obviously, my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish. However, if I a take DNA test then most probably, the test will say that I am zero or very little Turkish. This seems inconsistent to me.

This is not inconsistency. Biology and human-made societies are different things.

Your closest matches will not be fully Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Albanians, Circassians from different regions of Turkey. They will be Bosniaks. Other Balkan Slavs from Western Balkans will be following those Bosniaks who live in Turkey. This is not a coincidence but intersection of genetic science and history.

[reboun]

This is not inconsistency. Biology and human-made societies are different things.

Your closest matches will not be fully Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Albanians, Circassians from different regions of Turkey. They will be Bosniaks. Other Balkan Slavs from Western Balkans will be following those Bosniaks who live in Turkey. This is not a coincidence but intersection of genetic science and history.

Almost all of my family relatives identify themselves as Turkish and are culturally Turkish. This is why I said “my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish”.

[Kaspias]

Almost all of my family relatives identify themselves as Turkish and are culturally Turkish. This is why I said “my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish”.

My maternal line identifies Turkish as well, but they were not speaking Turkish like 100 years ago, or at least let's say they were bilingual. Were your ancestors? They probably were not even bilingual. Ethnic Turks always spoke Turkish and did not learn any other language in the native degree. This makes the difference. In your case, you know that your ancestors come from Bosnia and were Bosniaks, but when you ask the same question to ethnic Turks you will not able to get any other answer except for "we are Turk, we speak Turkish."

Bosniaks are an important part of Turkish culture and society, but this is coming from the imperial heritage that continued during the nation-state. Being non-Turk in ethnic meaning does not make you less Turkish, or does not make ethnic Turks superior to you. This is just not how genetics works. Your DNA relatives will be ethnic Bosniaks no matter what you identify and what you think and you will show no relativity to the ethnic Turks, while the Turk ethnicity among themselves match with each other. In this sense, it is apparent that you and ethnic Turks, or let's include some others such as Circassians or Albanians, are separate ethnicities that live under the Turkish cultural sphere. So, you're Turkish/Turk as long as you want to identify as such, but you will not be an ethnic Turk in racial meaning. And if you're not Turkish in terms of genetics, you can not be labeled as Turkish. You can be Bosniak_Turkey at maximum, but this doesn't change anything as there are plenty of Bosniaks who came from different regions.

One more thing is ethnic Turks are not diverse under their own ethnic groups(Anatolian, Balkan.) Turkey is diverse. You should make this separation as well.


Relativity drawing of some ethnic groups living in Turkey, based on genetic correlation:



Anatolian Turks, Balkan Turks, Albanians, Pomaks match among themselves. Georgians from Turkey and Ahiska Turks match with each other as well as Kurds and Zaza.

With the lower threshold:



Three major clusters:

1- Anatolian Turks and Azerbaijani Turks -> Merged with Cretan Turks, Kurdish, Zaza -> Eventually merged with the Caucasian group as well as Turk_East and Nusayri.
2- Balkan Turks -> Merged with Pomaks and Albanians.
3- Caucasians -> The actual correlation is between Armenian_West, Turk_East_Black_Sea, Turk_Ahiska, and Georgian_Turkey. The rest seem to be still outliers although merged with the main cluster. This group also connected with the Anatolian group thanks to the Azerbaijani bridge.



Bosnians are still isolated together with Steppe Tatars.

[Thracian]

Almost all of my family relatives identify themselves as Turkish and are culturally Turkish. This is why I said “my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish”.

A Kenyan man who raised in Germany feels like a German and adopted German culture is a German?

A Slav Russian who raised in Korea and identifies himself as a Korean is a Korean?

They can claim those ideas, and the society can accept them. But, their DNA will be different than society. A Kenyan man would cluster with other African populations, and Russian guy would cluster with Slavs. Neither Kenyan nor Russian guy would cluster with Germans or Koreans just because they identify themselves as Germans or Koreans. DNA is different than identification. That is why you can not use Kenyan man for German averages or Russian man for Korean averages.

[Leto]

The inconsistency in my mind: Obviously, my closest DNA relatives are Turkish citizens, live in Turkey, and are culturally Turkish. However, if I a take DNA test then most probably, the test will say that I am zero or very little Turkish. This seems inconsistent to me.

Don't project your personal identity issue onto the rest of the people. If you belong to an ethnic minority or have mixed ethnic background, doesn't mean the rest are or should be like you and cannot be considered a distinct nation beyond common citizenship. Most Turks are not Bosniaks, period.

[reboun]

My maternal line identifies Turkish as well, but they were not speaking Turkish like 100 years ago, or at least let's say they were bilingual. Were your ancestors? They probably were not even bilingual. Ethnic Turks always spoke Turkish and did not learn any other language in the native degree. This makes the difference. In your case, you know that your ancestors come from Bosnia and were Bosniaks, but when you ask the same question to ethnic Turks you will not able to get any other answer except for "we are Turk, we speak Turkish."

Bosniaks are an important part of Turkish culture and society, but this is coming from the imperial heritage that continued during the nation-state. Being non-Turk in ethnic meaning does not make you less Turkish, or does not make ethnic Turks superior to you. This is just not how genetics works. Your DNA relatives will be ethnic Bosniaks no matter what you identify and what you think and you will show no relativity to the ethnic Turks, while the Turk ethnicity among themselves match with each other. In this sense, it is apparent that you and ethnic Turks, or let's include some others such as Circassians or Albanians, are separate ethnicities that live under the Turkish cultural sphere. So, you're Turkish/Turk as long as you want to identify as such, but you will not be an ethnic Turk in racial meaning. And if you're not Turkish in terms of genetics, you can not be labeled as Turkish. You can be Bosniak_Turkey at maximum, but this doesn't change anything as there are plenty of Bosniaks who came from different regions.

One more thing is ethnic Turks are not diverse under their own ethnic groups(Anatolian, Balkan.) Turkey is diverse. You should make this separation as well.


Relativity drawing of some ethnic groups living in Turkey, based on genetic correlation:



Anatolian Turks, Balkan Turks, Albanians, Pomaks match among themselves. Georgians from Turkey and Ahiska Turks match with each other as well as Kurds and Zaza.

With the lower threshold:



Three major clusters:

1- Anatolian Turks and Azerbaijani Turks -> Merged with Cretan Turks, Kurdish, Zaza -> Eventually merged with the Caucasian group as well as Turk_East and Nusayri.
2- Balkan Turks -> Merged with Pomaks and Albanians.
3- Caucasians -> The actual correlation is between Armenian_West, Turk_East_Black_Sea, Turk_Ahiska, and Georgian_Turkey. The rest seem to be still outliers although merged with the main cluster. This group also connected with the Anatolian group thanks to the Azerbaijani bridge.



Bosnians are still isolated together with Steppe Tatars.

Thank you. Do you think there should be a Bosniak-Turkey category in GEDMatch? I think, its existence would be better.