Classify Mari girl. Is she textbook Volgid?

[Lemminkäinen]

Seya I think you should make an anthropological expedition in here.

But it can not be safe for you in this time of year.



Here is place where I live now (Mari El). It was about 30 degrees yesterday.

Spoiler!

But I'm sure you won't get cold in a warm Mari fur coat

I remember those felt boots. Never felt cold in them! Children used them in the 50's. Some people used Russian headscarfs in the 70's. Back then the Russian influence was strongest, fading 10 years later. Now we have the American era. Hopefully also it is gone soon. We don't need those bubbles making people mad.

[Östsvensk]

I tried searching for "wjatkid" on Google Books (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=wjatkid). It returned a short excerpt from Lundman's book "Jordens människoraser och folkstammar", and by searching for text within the excerpt I found an old post on Skadi with a longer quote from Lundman's book (translated from Swedish) (https://forums.skadi.net/threads/740...-finska-folken):

At the Volga, the intrusions now absorbed the older population of predominantly Wjatkid race (and unknown, though certainly not "Altaic" language affiliation). The Volga Finns still surviving in these areas also show a predominantly Eastern Baltic-Wjatkid racial mix, although of course nowadays some Turkomongolian (Cumin) and Russian (of various races) elements have been added. - Some Finno-Ugric tribes, the Ugric Voguls and the Ostyaks have pushed or displaced far to the east, into Siberia (and Siberian poverty). However, they are now racially almost entirely of the extremely low-skulled "pre-Mongoloid" Obid race of these regions. - A third Ugric tribe, the Hungarians, on the other hand, became a steppe people and ended up in a completely different direction. Important for us here, is that the Hungarians in the areas where they are most unmixed, ss szekles in Transylvania, are still strongly blonde and Eastern Baltic. - (Usually the children are otherwise darker.)

It is conceivable that during the earlier part of the Volga period the connection with or division of the ancestors into the present Samoyeds was also effected, if it could not have taken place earlier. [...]

They may then have lived in the current Eastern Baltics and adjacent parts of Western Russia, as well as parts of Finland (southwestern Finland was already "Germanic" during the Stone Age) - if, as Finnish researchers like it, the Eastern Baltic race is roughly the Finnish the "urras" of the Ugric peoples and the so-called Comb Ceramic (Stone Age) culture closely associated with these peoples. Then, as the cultural conditions indicate, the Finno-Ugric people would soon be forced to the east and already at the end of the Stone Age at Oka and the central Volga would have a secondary distribution center. However, some tribes have probably remained in the old area in eastern Finland and at Pejpus. But the emphasis on the cultural and linguistic development of the tribal group as a whole had, so to speak, been shifted away towards the Volga.

So it seems like Lundman considered that the homeland of Finno-Ugric people was in the west, that Wjatkid represented a pre-Uralic type of the Volga-Ural region, and that the present-day Uralic peoples of the Volga-Ural region were mixes between Wjatkid and East Baltid.

Lundman proposed that Savolaxid represented the original Finno-Ugric type and that the Tavastid type formed when Savolaxids mixed with Balts or Germanics:

In the last millennium before the birth of Christ, the stream of Finno-Ugric tribes, which had hitherto gone mainly to the east, turned to the west. Some tribes then pushed across the Valdai back towards the Baltic coast, which was reached in present-day Estonia and Ingria. Below this, the Eastern Baltic blood was strengthened in them by merging with the tribal relatives who remained in the old ancestral home all the time. In the southwest of the Baltic Sea and at Dyna, there was contact with Latvian-Lithuanians (who at that time spread far into Russia, perhaps all the way to Smolensk), and probably already Germans. The westernmost, now Baltic-Finnish tribes mixed with these and thus the Tavastid subrace arose. However, it has since had millennia of self-development, which among others is shown by its slightly wider head in relation to the more eastern Baltic (and of course also the Indo-Europeans of that time). - As the actual Finno-Ugric primeval breed, on the other hand, you can consider my Savolaxid sub-race.

So I guess if dark short VURish girls are Volgid/Wjatkid then this is it.

Lundman rejected the Volga Urals theory as being the homeland of the Finns, saying that it was a way too hot region for a majority light-eyed and light-haired population like Finns to have evolved in.

He believed that East Finns came first to Finland, that Savolaxid was the original East Baltid and that West Finns were sprung out of Savolaxids mixing with Germanics. He did not think that Finno-Ugrian speakers were racially homogeneous, but that high-skulled Savolaxids were racially intact since their birth and that they were closely related to the high-skulled Indo-Europeans of the East Nordid type. So I guess that he did not hold to the contemporary view held by some that modern-day Finns became predominantly European after a bunch of Scandinavian women got impregnated by Eastern invaders as some prehistoric multiculturalism in the North.

[Not a Cop]

Russian anthropology is probably something that ends up to Putinische anthropology .

Russian physical anthropology is probably most advanced in the world though. Third race of eurasia was a concept which proposed that Uralic race was not Europoid or Mongoloid, but a divergent form, which had it's own unique evolution due to isolation from times before the formation of greater races. Somewhat akin to ANE concept.

[Immanenz]

Russian physical anthropology is probably most advanced in the world though. Third race of eurasia was a concept which proposed that Uralic race was not Europoid or Mongoloid, but a divergent form, which had it's own unique evolution due to isolation from times before the formation of greater races. Somewhat akin to ANE concept.

they had certainly their own reason to think like that, being connected to it in a way.

[Lemminkäinen]

Lundman rejected the Volga Urals theory as being the homeland of the Finns, saying that it was a way too hot region for a majority light-eyed and light-haired population like Finns to have evolved in.

He believed that East Finns came first to Finland, that Savolaxid was the original East Baltid and that West Finns were sprung out of Savolaxids mixing with Germanics. He did not think that Finno-Ugrian speakers were racially homogeneous, but that high-skulled Savolaxids were racially intact since their birth and that they were closely related to the high-skulled Indo-Europeans of the East Nordid type. So I guess that he did not hold to the contemporary view held by some that modern-day Finns became predominantly European after a bunch of Scandinavian women got impregnated by Eastern invaders as some prehistoric multiculturalism in the North.

Today the modern linguist theories have a great impact to the view of the origin of Finns. The basic theory sees that that Iron Age dialects spoken in Southwestern Finland and Tavastia came from Estonia, so this implies that also those people came at least in certain amount from Estonia. Old linguists were not able to take into account modern genetics, so their theories were simply and didn't include modern yDna results, i.e. western I1, but the theory of the origin of Finnish language still remains. (Today linguists speak about Early Iron Age Saami/Finnish-Germanic contacts, but they in all circumstances beware of connecting this to Finnish Iron Age I1, although certainly make connections with Bronze Age N1c).
Looking closely the Baltic-Finnic language tree we see that also Karelian and Vepsian languages are placed to the northern Baltic-Finnic branch with Finnish. Sure they belong, it is easy to see even for layman. This means that Tavastian, SW-Finnish, Karelian and Vepsian are descendants of the southern Baltic-Finnic group including Estonian and Livonian. Linguists consider Savonian as the youngest dialect of the northern Baltic Finnic group. So in linguistic view Tavastians can't be descendants of Savonians, but in genetic view it is possible assuming Savonians as a mixture of Karelisns and Lapps (Lapps = south Saamis in Finland) and Tavastians as a mixture of Finns and Lapps. All possible modern theories confict with Lundman, but maybe we could take something from him after correcting his worst mistakes.

[Lemminkäinen]

Russian physical anthropology is probably most advanced in the world though. Third race of eurasia was a concept which proposed that Uralic race was not Europoid or Mongoloid, but a divergent form, which had it's own unique evolution due to isolation from times before the formation of greater races. Somewhat akin to ANE concept.

Hard to believe that modern Uralics are not mixed Europeans and Asians. People can dream something else though.

[Lemminkäinen]

Some cautions about Finnish popularized linguistic ideas. As I wrote Old Finnish including its dialects, Karelian and Vepsian belong to northern Baltic-Finnic group. The original, and still valid theory states that the northern group diverged from the southern one in South Finland during the first centuries AD. This obliges that Karelian and Vepsian are descendants of Iron Age Finnish, but doesn't oblige fully genetic similarity. Iron Age archaeology attests about the migration from Tavastia to Karelia, supporting the language flow too. I have seen that some Finnish layman linguists inspired by Russian scientists want to challenge this view of Finnish and Estonian science.

[Östsvensk]

Today the modern linguist theories have a great impact to the view of the origin of Finns. The basic theory sees that that Iron Age dialects spoken in Southwestern Finland and Tavastia came from Estonia, so this implies that also those people came at least in certain amount from Estonia. Old linguists were not able to take into account modern genetics, so their theories were simply and didn't include modern yDna results, i.e. western I1, but the theory of the origin of Finnish language still remains. (Today linguists speak about Early Iron Age Saami/Finnish-Germanic contacts, but they in all circumstances beware of connecting this to Finnish Iron Age I1, although certainly make connections with Bronze Age N1c).
Looking closely the Baltic-Finnic language tree we see that also Karelian and Vepsian languages are placed to the northern Baltic-Finnic branch with Finnish. Sure they belong, it is easy to see even for layman. This means that Tavastian, SW-Finnish, Karelian and Vepsian are descendants of the southern Baltic-Finnic group including Estonian and Livonian. Linguists consider Savonian as the youngest dialect of the northern Baltic Finnic group. So in linguistic view Tavastians can't be descendants of Savonians, but in genetic view it is possible assuming Savonians as a mixture of Karelisns and Lapps (Lapps = south Saamis in Finland) and Tavastians as a mixture of Finns and Lapps. All possible modern theories confict with Lundman, but maybe we could take something from him after correcting his worst mistakes.

Savolaxians were considered by Retzius as a mix of Tavastians and Karelians, which Lundman considered a wrong assumption.

Lundman wrote:

Most of the modern prehistorians assume that the ancestors
of the present-day West Finns began to arrive on the southwest
coast of Finland around the time of the birth of Christ. However,
the ancestors of the East Finns are believed to have settled in the
eastern part of the country as early as the Stone Age, and at
that time with a more or less comb-ware culture {Kammkeramischer
Kultur).

The Anthropological Study of Finland, translated from the German, p. 209

So it seems like people still hold to that in bold today, you say.

[travv]

I remember those felt boots. Never felt cold in them!

I think she'll like it.

[Lemminkäinen]

Savolaxians were considered by Retzius as a mix of Tavastians and Karelians, which Lundman considered a wrong assumption.

Lundman wrote:

Most of the modern prehistorians assume that the ancestors
of the present-day West Finns began to arrive on the southwest
coast of Finland around the time of the birth of Christ. However,
the ancestors of the East Finns are believed to have settled in the
eastern part of the country as early as the Stone Age, and at
that time with a more or less comb-ware culture {Kammkeramischer
Kultur).

The Anthropological Study of Finland, translated from the German, p. 209

So it seems like people still hold to that in bold today, you say.

Lundman is wrong about Savonians. Although both, Savonians and Tavastians share common Lapp ancestry, the Savonians are mixed Tavastians and Karelians, just as Retzius suggests. The fact that all Finns have minor Lapp ancestry doesn't oblige that all later Finnish admixtures didn't exist.

According all brances of science the Baltic-Finnic language came to SW-Finland during the first centuries AD. But as we know linguists are prone to make mistakes; only 40 years ago they made a continuation theory suggesting that Uralic languages were spoken here soon after the Ice Age. This gives room for Russian troll factories to spread opinions. Now Finnish linguists are back in main stream and support old Finnish and Estonian linguistic views.