Serbian autosomal DNA #2

[vbnetkhio]

The old thread is now over 100 pages long, and I have collected many new samples, so it's time for an update.

with the new samples, the average for Vojvodina changed significantly, and for other regions, old averages which were made from much less samples were confirmed, but some minor components which seemed to stick out were polished.

territorial division:

Spoiler!

it's based on a combination of dialectal and ethnographic differences, and historical-geographical regions.

the averages:

_	North_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	Northeast_Afr	Sub_Saharan
Serb_Herzegovina	24.24	28.42	17.69	9.12	16.53	1.92	0.17	0.27	0.57	0.44	0.4	0.16	0.07
Serb_Montenegro_South	24.06	25.44	18.66	10.11	17.52	2.21	0.27	0.26	0.74	0.37	0.28	0.02	0.05
Serb_B&H_Bosnia_Proper	25.39	31.43	16.48	8.37	14.3	1.35	0.64	0.36	0.91	0.43	0.26	0.07	0.01
Serb_B&H_Krajina	24.41	31.1	16.68	9.72	14.29	1.21	0.39	0.24	0.76	0.34	0.69	0.07	0.1
Serb_Croatia_south	25.48	29.52	16.94	8.38	15.57	1.70	0.48	0.30	0.68	0.44	0.33	0.12	0.05
Serb_Croatia_north	25.22	30.66	16.36	9.3	15.13	1.35	0.54	0.29	0.33	0.38	0.35	0.04	0.02
Serb_Serbia_south	23.55	28.45	16.82	9.8	16.96	2.09	0.51	0.30	0.60	0.38	0.27	0.12	0.12
Serb_Serbia_central	24.89	29.52	16.74	8.49	16.39	1.75	0.27	0.23	0.73	0.53	0.24	0.07	0.09
Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina	24.72	28.71	17.21	9.07	16.01	1.5	0.65	0.5	0.54	0.53	0.3	0.07	0.15
Serb_Serbia_west	25.54	29.32	17.4	9.21	14.74	1.29	0.57	0.25	0.85	0.48	0.2	0.06	0.1

vahaduo format:

Serb_Herzegovina,24.24,28.42,17.69,9.12,16.53,1.92,0.17,0.27,0.57,0.44,0.4,0.16,0.07
Serb_Montenegro_South,24.06,25.44,18.66,10.11,17.52,2.21,0.27,0.26,0.74,0.37,0.28,0.02,0.05
Serb_B&H_Bosnia_Proper,25.39,31.43,16.48,8.37,14.3,1.35,0.64,0.36,0.91,0.43,0.26,0.07,0.01
Serb_B&H_Krajina,24.41,31.1,16.68,9.72,14.29,1.21,0.39,0.24,0.76,0.34,0.69,0.07,0.1
Serb_Croatia_south,25.48,29.52,16.94,8.38,15.57,1.70,0.48,0.30,0.68,0.44,0.33,0.12,0.05
Serb_Croatia_north,25.22,30.66,16.36,9.3,15.13,1.35,0.54,0.29,0.33,0.38,0.35,0.04,0.02
Serb_Serbia_south,23.55,28.45,16.82,9.8,16.96,2.09,0.51,0.30,0.60,0.38,0.27,0.12,0.12
Serb_Serbia_central,24.89,29.52,16.74,8.49,16.39,1.75,0.27,0.23,0.73,0.53,0.24,0.07,0.09
Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina,24.72,28.71,17.21,9.07,16.01,1.5,0.65,0.5,0.54,0.53,0.3,0.07,0.15
Serb_Serbia_west,25.54,29.32,17.4,9.21,14.74,1.29,0.57,0.25,0.85,0.48,0.2,0.06,0.1

sample size:
all 18-20, except Croatia_South(Lika and Dalmatia) which has 66 samples.

if anybody's interested in individual results, PM me.

[vbnetkhio]

PCA of Serbs and neighbouring populations:



my conclusions from this PCA would be:

1)all Serbs cluster together, except those from southern Montenegro, who stand out by being less Slavic.
2)on a population level, there wasn't much mixing with neighbouring populations.

The level of mixing with Bosniaks, South Croats, Bulgarians and Romanians is impossible do detect though, because of how close they plot to Serbs.

[vbnetkhio]

now, with the most relevant ancient populations:


the pre-Slavic population in most of what we call Balkans was pretty similar, according to G25 (and k13) something similar to Mycenaeans.
In Bulgaria and Southeast Serbia (and eastern Romania and Moldavia), the pre-Slavic population was a bit more Anatolian shifted, and in the western Balkans it was a bit more Pannonian.

but The Herzegovina region also has an increased Anatolian shift, despite being in the Western Balkans.

So, it's not strictily geographic, it just depends on where there was more middle eastern settlement during the Roman Empire.

the Hungarians and North Croats are competely different. Their pre-Slavic population were the Pannonian Romans, and they also have some extra Germanic on top of that.

[Ion Basescul]

What is your explanation on why you guys are so homogeneous?
Did most of the ancestors live very close to one another and it's only recently that the territory expanded significantly?

[vbnetkhio]

What is your explanation on why you guys are so homogeneous?
Did most of the ancestors live very close to one another and it's only recently that the territory expanded significantly?

-Western Serbs (from the western half of Serbia, Croatia, B&H, north Montenegro) traditionally spoke the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect. (which originates from Herzegovina, obviously.)
-Serbs from central Serbia speak the Kosovo-Resava dialect (which originates from Northern Kosovo, which is close to Herzegovina, and the dialect is similar too.)
-Vojvodina Serbs spoke a dialect between these 2.

so all these regions had significant population declines (because it was a very turbulent area, a border region between empires) and then there was resettlement from Herzegovina and Kosovo, to such a degree that the previous dialects died out.

except these dialects, there are also the Zeta-Raška dialect (in Southern Montenegro), and the Prizern Timok dialect (in South-East Serbia) and as you can see, those 2 regions are exactly the ones which stand out from the rest autosomally.

for Southeast Serbia it's less obvious because their Baltic level is similar to other Serbs, but if you look at the other components, the difference is more obvious.

also take into account that we are talking about a much smaller area and popualtion than that of, let's say, Romanians.

[Varda]

What is your explanation on why you guys are so homogeneous?
Did most of the ancestors live very close to one another and it's only recently that the territory expanded significantly?

Most of Serbs from Croatia were isolated from other Serbs 500 years, they had only strong connection with Serbs from Bosnian Krajina (western Bosnia).


Here is y dna of Serbs from Croatia from 23andMe (360 samples) posted by moderator from site Poreklo (Небојша) and that is а forum of "Serbian dna project https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...2288#msg152288

His last two sentences: It would be said that among Serbs from Croatia (Krajina) is the least variety of haplogroups/sub-branches. Reasons are more or less known, some kind of isolation.

[vbnetkhio]

What is your explanation on why you guys are so homogeneous?
Did most of the ancestors live very close to one another and it's only recently that the territory expanded significantly?

also check out Mingle's map of Serbian migrations:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...Migrations-Map

and this map of central Serbia:
https://i.redd.it/2wz8bnb6z3h21.png

pink- settlers from Herzegovina, and the red spots are oases of non Herzegovinian locals.

green - settlers from Kosovo
blue- the older population of Eastern Serbia, but they also speak the Kosovo dialect.

yellow - the "South Morava Serbs"
dark red - Shopi and Torlaks
these 3 are the natives of Southeast Serbia with some ethnographic and dialectal differences.

and that grayish zone in the top right corner are the "Vlachs" (Romanians from Oltenia and Banat.)

[vbnetkhio]

Most of Serbs from Croatia were isolated from other Serbs 500 years, they had only strong connection with Serbs from Bosnian Krajina (western Bosnia).


Here is y dna of Serbs from Croatia from 23andMe (360 samples) posted by moderator from site Poreklo (Небојша) and that is а forum of "Serbian dna project https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...2288#msg152288

His last two sentences: It would be said that among Serbs from Croatia (Krajina) is the least variety of haplogroups/sub-branches. Reasons are more or less known, some kind of isolation.

yes, because of this isolation, haplogroups like J2b1, N-P189.2, I-P109, had a founder effect among Krajina Serbs.
other western Serbs originate from the same places as Serbs from Croatia, and they also have those haplogroups, but they didn't have such a big founder effect.

just compare the autosomal of Lika/Dalmatia and Western Serbia.

[Varda]

yes, because of this isolation, haplogroups like J2b1, N-P189.2, I-P109, had a founder effect among Krajina Serbs.
other western Serbs originate from the same places as Serbs from Croatia, and they also have those haplogroups, but they didn't have such a big founder effect.

just compare the autosomal of Lika/Dalmatia and Western Serbia.

E1b among Serbs from Croatia is similar as Herzegovinian and western Serbia Serbs. It's bellow Serbian average.

Serbs from Croatia are similar as western Serbia Serbs (especially Serb_Croatia_south), but still both are more northern shifted than Herzegovinian Serbs. How do you explain this?
Also, how you explain high similarity between Herzegovinian and southern Serbs and we know they are not connected with migrations and dialect? According to your work Herzegovinian Serbs are autosomally quite closer to southern Serbs than to Bosnian proper, Bosnian Krajina and Serbs from Croatia. The fact is that Herzegovinian Serbs are linguistically and by migrations are connected with Serbs from Bosnia/Croatia, not with southern Serbs (Torlakian speakers).

[vbnetkhio]

E1b among Serbs from Croatia is similar as Herzegovinian and western Serbia Serbs. It's bellow Serbian average.

Serbs from Croatia are similar as western Serbia Serbs (especially Serb_Ctoatia_south), but still are both more northern shifted than Herzegovinian Serbs. How do you explain this?

I think there was a first migration wave from Herzegovina which was more Slavic, and then in the following centuries there were additional waves which were less Slavic, because they came from the more isolated mountainous parts of Herzegovina (Drobnjak, Piva) and even from South Montenegro (Kuči, Vasojevići), also Kriči, which were from in between.

So Serbs in the Trebinje, Nevesinje etc, got the most from these following waves, and those in Banija, Northern Bosnia and Mačva the least, so they are actually closer to the original autosomal dna of Herzegovinians.