Serbian autosomal DNA #2

[Dušan]

What is your explanation on why you guys are so homogeneous?
Did most of the ancestors live very close to one another and it's only recently that the territory expanded significantly?

[Varda]

I think there was a first migration wave from Herzegovina which was more Slavic, and then in the following centuries there were additional waves which were less Slavic, because they came from the more isolated mountainous parts of Herzegovina (Drobnjak, Piva) and even from South Montenegro (Kuči, Vasojevići), also Kriči, which were from in between.

So Serbs in the Trebinje, Nevesinje etc, got the most from these following waves, and those in Banija, Northern Bosnia and Mačva the least, so they are actually closer to the original autosomal dna of Herzegovinians.

So, you think Serbs from more northern shifted regions are closer to medieval Herzegovinian Serbs than present day Herzegovinian Serbs who are Montenegrin influenced.
Large part of present day Serbs from East Herzegovina originated from Old/Montenegrin Herzegovina (migrations in 17th and 18th century), but still Brda immigrants are not that common. Also, there is many Serbs in East Herzegovina who are there since middle age (mostly around Trebinje, Bileća and Gacko). Nevesinje area is lack of natives, local Serbs there are mostly settlers from Old Herzegovina and more eastern part of East Herzegovina (Trebinje-Bileća-Gacko). Ljubinje area has more natives than Nevesinje, but still less than Trebinje-Bileća-Gacko.

[Dušan]

Serb_Herzegovina,24.24,28.42,17.69,9.12,16.53,1.92,0.17,0.27,0.57,0.44,0.4,0.16,0.07
Serb_Montenegro_South,24.06,25.44,18.66,10.11,17.52,2.21,0.27,0.26,0.74,0.37,0.28,0.02,0.05
Serb_B&H_Bosnia_Proper,25.39,31.43,16.48,8.37,14.3,1.35,0.64,0.36,0.91,0.43,0.26,0.07,0.01
Serb_B&H_Krajina,24.41,31.1,16.68,9.72,14.29,1.21,0.39,0.24,0.76,0.34,0.69,0.07,0.1
Serb_Croatia_south,25.48,29.52,16.94,8.38,15.57,1.70,0.48,0.30,0.68,0.44,0.33,0.12,0.05
Serb_Croatia_north,25.22,30.66,16.36,9.3,15.13,1.35,0.54,0.29,0.33,0.38,0.35,0.04,0.02
Serb_Serbia_south,23.55,28.45,16.82,9.8,16.96,2.09,0.51,0.30,0.60,0.38,0.27,0.12,0.12
Serb_Serbia_central,24.89,29.52,16.74,8.49,16.39,1.75,0.27,0.23,0.73,0.53,0.24,0.07,0.09
Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina,24.72,28.71,17.21,9.07,16.01,1.5,0.65,0.5,0.54,0.53,0.3,0.07,0.15
Serb_Serbia_west,25.54,29.32,17.4,9.21,14.74,1.29,0.57,0.25,0.85,0.48,0.2,0.06,0.1

.

Nice, I got these averages, 27 out of 50 in 2-way mixed mode.

Distance to: Dušan
3.04023288 93.00% Moldova_North + 7.00% Sardinia
3.82871153 10.00% Erzya_Mordovian + 90.00% Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.82996621 61.60% Albanian_Gheg + 38.40% Latvian
3.84834840 39.40% Latvian + 60.60% Torbesh_average
3.88508999 20.60% Erzya_Mordovian + 79.40% Serb_Herzegovina
3.89087845 8.40% Russian_Pinega + 91.60% Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.90020461 7.60% Latvian + 92.40% Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.90998120 10.00% Russian_Kargopol + 90.00% Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.94660775 10.80% Russian_average + 89.20% Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.96845388 75.40% Serb_B&H_Krajina + 24.60% Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
3.99028896 49.80% Russian_average + 50.20% Torbesh_average
3.99206139 10.20% Belarusian_Minsk + 89.80% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.00603254 7.40% France_Corsica + 92.60% Moldova_North
4.01692630 24.20% Latvian + 75.80% Moldova_South
4.02137610 87.40% Serb_B&H_Krajina + 12.60% Ukrainian
4.03016301 48.80% Belarusian_Minsk + 51.20% Torbesh_average
4.03047268 51.20% Albanian_Gheg + 48.80% Russian_average
4.03294599 16.20% Erzya_Mordovian + 83.80% Serb
4.03483576 50.20% Moldova_North + 49.80% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.03651702 21.20% Russian_Kargopol + 78.80% Serb_Herzegovina
4.03888369 44.60% Torbesh_average + 55.40% Ukrainian
4.05908393 52.20% Albanian_Gheg + 47.80% Belarusian_Minsk
4.06331284 7.60% Lithuanian + 92.40% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.06483251 32.00% Belarusian_Minsk + 68.00% Moldova_South
4.07736321 9.00% Russian_Kostroma + 91.00% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.08523568 23.40% Latvian + 76.60% Serb_Montenegro_South
4.08865038 42.80% Moldova_South + 57.20% Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
4.09555519 73.40% Moldova_North + 26.60% Serb_Herzegovina
4.09626619 22.80% Russian_average + 77.20% Serb_Herzegovina
4.10590413 45.60% Albanian_Gheg + 54.40% Ukrainian
4.10967471 10.60% Russian_Southwest + 89.40% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.11188636 16.20% Latvian + 83.80% Serb_Herzegovina
4.11893325 54.80% Moldova_North + 45.20% Serb_B&H_Bosnia_Proper
4.12002967 90.40% Moldova_North + 9.60% Torbesh_average
4.12264094 59.00% Greek_Eastern-Macedonia + 41.00% Latvian
4.12540722 14.00% Moldova_Ukrainian + 86.00% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.12811987 9.40% Russian_Smolensk + 90.60% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.13703920 74.60% Bosniak_Sandzak + 25.40% Latvian
4.13926234 33.60% Latvian + 66.40% Macedonia_south
4.14019348 68.40% Moldova_North + 31.60% Serb
4.14139916 5.60% Mari + 94.40% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.14214722 60.40% Albanian + 39.60% Latvian
4.14271858 23.20% Latvian + 76.80% Romania_Banat
4.14519935 78.80% Serb_B&H_Krajina + 21.20% Ukrainian_Carpathian
4.14887737 62.20% Moldova_South + 37.80% Ukrainian
4.15470934 6.40% Chuvash + 93.60% Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.15638040 33.40% Moldova_South_Gagauzia + 66.60% Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
4.16615570 9.60% Albanian_Gheg + 90.40% Moldova_North
4.17652272 70.00% Moldova_North + 30.00% Serb_Serbia_west
4.17825465 7.20% IT_Lombardy + 92.80% Moldova_North

[Ion Basescul]

also take into account that we are talking about a much smaller area and popualtion than that of, let's say, Romanians.

I understand, but there's bigger diversity even in my small country of 30k km^2, where the genetic profile of ethnic Moldovans/Romanians can vary from Bulgarian to Ukrainian-like.

[vbnetkhio]

So, you think Serbs from more northern shifted regions are closer to medieval Herzegovinian Serbs than present day Herzegovinian Serbs who are Montenegrin influenced.

yes, i'm sure this is the biggest reason, haplogroups also support this.

check what Nebojsa says here about families in Bosnian Krajina:
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...1672#msg131672

СТАРОСЕДЕОЦИ - Serbs native to Bosnia, but later he explains they also came from Herzegovina.
ДОСЕЉЕНИЦИ - (Досељеници из Рашке, црногорске и јужне Херцеговине, Приморја и Македоније, преко Северне Далмације)

I calculated the percentages:

_	СТАРОСЕДЕОЦИ	ДОСЕЉЕНИЦИ
e	6.25	14.86
g	0.00	2.70
i1	15.63	1.35
i2	40.63	24.32
j2a	0.00	5.41
j2b	0.00	14.86
n2	3.13	9.46
r1a	34.38	18.92
r1b	0.00	8.11

The "doseljenici" are obviously more "southern" by Y-DNA..
and "starosoedeoci" represent the original Herzegovina Serbs, and they are also the reason Bosnian Krajina is autosomally more Slavic.

Large part of present day Serbs from East Herzegovina originated from Old/Montenegrin Herzegovina (migrations in 17th and 18th century), but still Brda immigrants are not that common. Also, there is many Serbs in East Herzegovina who are there since middle age (mostly around Trebinje, Bileća and Gacko). Nevesinje are are is lack of natives, local Serbs there are mostly settlers from Old Herzegovina and more eastern part of East Herzegovina (Trebinje-Bileća-Gacko). Ljubinje area has more natives than Nevesinje, but still less than Trebinje-Bileća-Gacko.

I know Herzegovina Serbs have a lot of I2 and R1a. but maybe the admixture came through maternal lines? taking wives from the mountain tribes etc
idk. Maybe you can find a result from Trebinje, Bileća and Gacko, and it will be more Slavic. But you have to message them and ask them if they really have all 4 grandparents from there, otherwise we'll never be sure.

[Varda]

yes, i'm sure this is the biggest reason, haplogroups also support this.

check what Nebojsa says here about families in Bosnian Krajina:
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?t...1672#msg131672

СТАРОСЕДЕОЦИ - Serbs native to Bosnia, but later he explains they also came from Herzegovina.
ДОСЕЉЕНИЦИ - (Досељеници из Рашке, црногорске и јужне Херцеговине, Приморја и Македоније, преко Северне Далмације)

I calculated the percentages:

_	СТАРОСЕДЕОЦИ	ДОСЕЉЕНИЦИ
e	6.25	14.86
g	0.00	2.70
i1	15.63	1.35
i2	40.63	24.32
j2a	0.00	5.41
j2b	0.00	14.86
n2	3.13	9.46
r1a	34.38	18.92
r1b	0.00	8.11

The "doseljenici" are obvoiously more "southern" by Y-DNA..



I know Herzegovina Serbs have a lot of I2 and R1a. but maybe the admixture came through maternal lines? taking wives from the mountain tribes etc
idk. Maybe you can find a result from Trebinje, Bileća and Gacko, and it will be more Slavic. But you have to message them and ask them if they really have all 4 grandparents from there, otherwise we'll never be sure.

Northern paternal lines (I2a+R1a+I1):
Natives - 90.64%
Settlers from southeast - 44.59%
It seems native element among Bosanska Krajina Serbs is underestimated. Vast majority of them claim further origin from Montenegro. Bosanska Krajina Serbs are 31.1 Baltic, and Montenegrin Serbs are 25.44.
When I said natives among this term can be hidden old settlers from Herzegovina from second half of 15th century, not only medieval people of Donji Kraji. It seems it's case with large part of Serbs from Zmijanje.

[vbnetkhio]

I understand, but there's bigger diversity even in my small country of 30k km^2, where the genetic profile of ethnic Moldovans/Romanians can vary from Bulgarian to Ukrainian-like.

i think there was simply somewhat recent mixing between Romanians, Bulgarians and Ukrainians, which still hasn't evened out autosomally.

Romania is much larger, and if you just remove the "Romania_Moldavia_North" average, the Romanian cluster is about equally sized as the Serbian one on a PCA.

[Ion Basescul]

PCA of Serbs and neighbouring populations:



my conclusions from this PCA would be:

1)all Serbs cluster together, except those from southern Montenegro, who stand out by being less Slavic.
2)on a population level, there wasn't much mixing with neighbouring populations.

The level of mixing with Bosniaks, South Croats, Bulgarians and Romanians is impossible do detect though, because of how close they plot to Serbs.

For that Romanian_SW cluster of 3, I suppose you are using the 3 counties that border Serbia?
If that's the case, here are the latest figures:

Romania_Banat_Timis,23.03,25.76,17.62,11.02,17.37, 1.89,0.76,0.60,1.00,0.58,0.25,0.10,0.03
Romania_Banat_Caras-Severin,23.48,25.61,17.93,10.12,17.74,2.11,0.26,0. 44,1.44,0.36,0.30,0.05,0.18
Romania_Oltenia_Mehedinti,23.43,25.03,17.70,10.80, 17.97,2.06,0.71,0.97,0.45,0.39,0.44,0.03,0.01

Location/Ethnicity	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Timis	27	23.03	25.76	17.62	11.02	17.37	1.89	0.76	0.60	1.00	0.58	0.25	0.10	0.03
Caras-Severin	8	23.48	25.61	17.93	10.12	17.74	2.11	0.26	0.44	1.44	0.36	0.30	0.05	0.18

Location/Ethnicity	Number of Samples	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Mehedinti	16	23.43	25.03	17.70	10.80	17.97	2.06	0.71	0.97	0.45	0.39	0.44	0.03	0.01

[vbnetkhio]

34 academic samples from Belgrade (actually recent sttlers from all regions.)
the average turns out very similar to the one for central Serbia.

Serb_Serbia_Belgrade,24.63,28.28,16.75,9.19,16.83,1.77,0.32,0.34,0.72,0.48,0.48,0.14,0.07

SerbianSerbia1,23.85,31.99,16.68,8.29,14.51,2.46,1.75,0.00,0.07,0.12,0.28,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia10,22.40,24.90,18.50,10.78,18.85,2.45,0.00,0.00,1.64,0.00,0.00,0.50,0.00
SerbianSerbia11,32.83,25.22,15.54,10.19,12.78,1.61,0.00,0.09,0.96,0.74,0.00,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia12,23.75,27.12,18.36,6.58,19.21,1.04,0.94,1.04,0.91,0.39,0.57,0.09,0.00
SerbianSerbia16,23.03,30.75,15.57,9.11,17.94,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.67,0.26,1.32,0.35,0.00
SerbianSerbia18,25.20,27.30,16.56,7.16,18.75,2.17,0.00,0.79,1.01,0.68,0.36,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia19,24.72,30.80,16.20,6.70,16.83,2.34,0.74,0.00,0.00,1.44,0.25,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia2,23.91,26.26,19.59,10.08,15.34,2.08,1.64,0.00,0.82,0.05,0.24,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia3,23.85,29.91,15.93,9.22,17.53,1.55,0.34,0.84,0.66,0.00,0.18,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia4,20.74,26.60,18.84,9.42,20.10,0.95,0.26,0.16,0.28,1.79,0.86,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia5,24.56,25.23,18.49,10.55,18.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.81,0.88,0.99,0.38,0.00
SerbianSerbia6,24.42,31.15,14.57,8.94,15.72,2.09,0.56,0.65,0.00,0.87,1.04,0.00,0.00
SerbianSerbia7,23.71,28.05,17.76,9.21,17.80,0.19,0.00,0.00,1.34,0.00,1.28,0.14,0.51
SerbianSerbia9,24.97,28.43,16.20,10.66,15.76,1.77,0.00,1.42,0.00,0.63,0.16,0.00,0.00
Serbia_710,29.28,25.74,13.83,8.76,16.85,2.65,0.00,1.09,0.99,0.14,0.65,0.00,0.01
Serbia_711,26.11,31.61,15.59,8.22,15.87,0.60,0.00,0.00,1.40,0.05,0.00,0.00,0.55
Serbia_712,25.47,30.70,16.36,4.84,18.59,2.25,0.00,0.02,0.26,0.50,0.00,0.99,0.01
Serbia_713,22.57,29.72,19.33,11.57,13.11,0.74,0.01,0.00,0.13,0.90,1.50,0.00,0.42
Serbia_714,19.70,24.41,17.48,13.26,21.56,0.98,0.01,0.01,0.61,0.00,0.61,1.24,0.12
Serbia_715,28.15,26.57,16.44,8.42,16.29,1.94,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.56,1.63,0.00,0.00
Serbia_716,20.66,25.68,16.43,9.61,21.92,3.62,0.37,1.29,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.43,0.00
Serbia_717,24.73,30.12,18.92,6.34,14.26,3.08,0.06,1.29,0.00,0.71,0.06,0.25,0.18
Serbia_718,28.40,28.03,13.04,10.62,14.50,3.16,0.93,0.24,0.00,0.65,0.41,0.01,0.00
Serbia_719,21.82,32.77,13.85,13.41,12.81,2.73,0.00,0.02,0.32,1.43,0.85,0.00,0.00
Serbia_720,21.39,28.76,17.30,9.16,18.62,2.97,0.00,0.60,0.87,0.11,0.23,0.00,0.00
Serbia_721,26.41,31.29,12.38,7.21,18.57,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.60,0.43,0.00,0.00,0.00
Serbia_722,23.25,26.84,17.84,9.79,19.09,0.00,0.52,0.00,2.13,0.00,0.27,0.23,0.04
Serbia_723,23.28,30.45,15.46,11.17,16.62,1.84,0.02,0.62,0.00,0.00,0.55,0.00,0.00
Serbia_724,24.56,30.52,17.56,8.23,17.28,0.39,0.00,0.18,1.28,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Serbia_725,18.62,32.58,19.07,10.70,15.96,0.03,1.15,0.00,1.66,0.00,0.00,0.10,0.13
Serbia_726,27.66,23.15,17.84,10.22,15.44,3.35,0.03,0.25,1.19,0.14,0.73,0.00,0.00
Serbia_727,23.55,29.76,17.18,7.86,18.06,1.17,0.01,0.43,0.00,1.18,0.79,0.00,0.00
Serbia_728,30.77,24.11,16.04,8.82,14.13,2.51,1.41,0.03,0.39,1.72,0.08,0.00,0.00
Serbia_729,29.16,25.13,18.65,7.35,13.40,2.48,0.00,0.51,2.43,0.00,0.46,0.00,0.45

[Varda]

I know Herzegovina Serbs have a lot of I2 and R1a. but maybe the admixture came through maternal lines? taking wives from the mountain tribes etc
idk. Maybe you can find a result from Trebinje, Bileća and Gacko, and it will be more Slavic. But you have to message them and ask them if they really have all 4 grandparents from there, otherwise we'll never be sure.

According to my information this is K13 of Serbian woman from Trebinje area 20200426_011553 (2).jpg

Her surname came from Maleševci clan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleševci
Y dna of Maleševci is I2-PH908