The Fallacy of the "Pseudo" Phenotypes/Country Bias - DISCUSS

[hurtuv]

Phenotypes itself are just pseudo -science. Also most people did not read the describtions or know all the terms by heart (which is also very difficult without seeing those phenotypes daily). The more geographic removed a phenotype is, the less you know about it. Passifications are also highly subjective- you are what you are.

I really dont think the North African looks Amerindian for example. Everyody is entitled to his opinion- there is no absolut truth, especially in Pseudo science. But yeah, it would be appreciated if people would be less biased, i def. agree on this.

As I have said many times you can't classify someone without knowing their origin (this was also pointed out by Russian anthropologists) it just doesn't make sense.

For example this woman below is Berber




and she looks Cenral Asian (Nassbean/Hamilcar posted a lot of such looking Berbers). I'm sure even our the best unbiased classifiers never classify her as Turanid because it's too much even for them.

At the same time, they classified some similar-looking Portuguese as Turanid or Uralid (like hurtuv said already).

In the same way they classify their kinsmen as Faelids, Paleo-Atlantid, Nordcocromagnids etc because as they think they have some resemblance to the northern Eropeans. Just ridiculous.

There can be no any "unbiased classification". The classification must be biased, otherwise it makes no sense.

"Unbiased classification" it's a joke just another OWD thing from brown people.

A classification should correspond with racial/ethnic make-up (including historical migrations), otherwise what's the point?

Racial taxonomy was a flawed way of dividing Europeans from before the science of population genetics, it should only complement genetic reality, as a separate thing it's meaningless.

Creoda:
What if one is asked to do a classification of someone without knowing that person's ethnic background, at least to begin with? Is that not possible? And does it not have value? An is that something that should be allowed to change once the ethnic background of that person is revealed?
I believe there is value - the value of putting someone into a certain category (or a combination of categories, ex: Atlantid + East Med) of looks (phenotypes) - and grouping that person with others of the same category/ies_which may not or may be of very distant ethnic backgrouds, for the sake of classifying the appearence alone - but I suppose one can find this more interesting, or not so much. This is, imo, the value of a totally separate phenotypical classification system, certainly not meaningless, and a lot more valuable than something that mixes concepts that should be separate, by semantic definition.

As for the pseudocience origin of phenotypical classification system, it may have originated as a pseudo-scientific way of defining races before the advent of genetics (the "Borreby race", the "Atlantid race", etc). But if it stopped having value, why are we still doing such classifications today, in forums like ours? I don't think most forum members here go on doing their classification business in various threads because the subjects of such threads have their genetic results presented (usually they have their ethnicity, but it's super rare to have someone who is not a forum member as well have their genetic results present) and as a complement for such results; but because of the value it has separately, that I talk about in the paragraphs above - the interest of classifying looks alone.
So the phenotypes could stop being regarded as the pseudo-scientific definition of races (ex: the "Alpine Race") that they were at their origin, long ago; and make a transition to being regarded as a scientific definition of looks (the "Alpine look"-or simply, the "Alpine phenotype"), and each look can stretch many actual genetic/ethnic races, and each race have a variety of different looks - different phenotypes.

travv:
"depigmented Atlanto-Med" this guy is then, brown, like his kinsmen

screenshot tools

[Damião de Góis]

I think the problem with taxonomy is the lack of phenotypes for everyone. Some european regions are very detailed with lots of types and for others they reduced everyone to 2 or 3 types.
It's difficult to classify everyone here using only "atlanto-med", "gracile-med" and "berid".

[Immanenz]

What if one is asked to do a classification of someone without knowing that person's ethnic background, at least to begin with? Is that not possible? And does it not have value? An is that something that should be allowed to change once the ethnic background of that person is revealed?


So the phenotypes could stop being regarded as the pseudo-scientific definition of races (ex: the "Alpine Race") that they were at their origin, long ago; and make a transition to being regarded as a scientific definition of looks (the "Alpine look"-or simply, the "Alpine phenotype"), and each look can stretch many actual genetic/ethnic races, and each race have a variety of different looks - different phenotypes.

there is no univocal " Alpine" look obv. jsut like there is no univocal Med look etc. East Med for example is the most vague term ever since it is used for Greeks, Turks and some other Mena coutnries but all of them dont look alike- neither it is well defined. The Indian actor could be an Iranid with Paleo stuff that makes his look closer to an Atlantid since it the combination of (so called) progressive/ arhaic ratio is similar producing a phenotypical overlapp.


People doing classification it just for fun, or to show the phenotypical variation of their coutnry i guess. I try to classify not based on ethnicity- i participate in guess threads etc.

[Creoda]

What if one is asked to do a classification of someone without knowing that person's ethnic background, at least to begin with? Is that not possible? And does it not have value?

Happens all the time on here. It has value only if people value it. It has no scientific value.

An is that something that should be allowed to change once the ethnic background of that person is revealed?

It would make a mockery of the original classification.

I believe there is value - the value of putting someone into a certain category (or a combination of categories, ex: Atlantid + East Med) of looks (phenotypes) - and grouping that person with others of the same category/ies_which may not or may be of very distant ethnic backgrouds, for the sake of classifying the appearence alone - but I suppose one can find this more interesting, or not so much. This is, imo, the value of a totally separate phenotypical classification system, certainly not meaningless, and a lot more valuable than something that mixes concepts that should be separate, by semantic definition.

What is that value then? If it doesn't correspond with racial reality, and only obscures it or misleads? Genetics = reality, phenotype classifications = perception. You can't separate the latter as it is merely an expression of the former.

As for the pseudocience origin of phenotypical classification system, it may have originated as a pseudo-scientific way of defining races before the advent of genetics (the "Borreby race", the "Atlantid race", etc). But if it stopped having value, why are we still doing such classifications today, in forums like ours?

Boredom, too much time on one's hands, autism, take your pick. Everyone knows that each nation possesses a host of different looks (arising from their genetics), what is done here is mainly categorising them, and it shouldn't be seen as much more.

I don't think most forum members here go on doing their classification business in various threads because the subjects of such threads have their genetic results presented (usually they have their ethnicity, but it's super rare to have someone who is not a forum member as well have their genetic results present) and as a complement for such results; but because of the value it has separately, that I talk about in the paragraphs above - the interest of classifying looks alone.
So the phenotypes could stop being regarded as the pseudo-scientific definition of races (ex: the "Alpine Race") that they were at their origin, long ago; and make a transition to being regarded as a scientific definition of looks (the "Alpine look"-or simply, the "Alpine phenotype"), and each look can stretch many actual genetic/ethnic races, and each race have a variety of different looks - different phenotypes.

But a 'look' in itself doesn't always describe reality, it is based on perceptions, and perceptions are biased and easily deceived. So-called Alpines/Borrebies/(Paleo)Atlantids/Tronders etc rarely look similar when they're from different corners of Europe with very different genetic realities, yet they are pigeon-holed together for some reason (muh white race, all Europeans are the same).

[hurtuv]

Boredom, too much time on one's hands, autism, take your pick. Everyone knows that each nation possesses a host of different looks (arising from their genetics), what is done here is mainly categorising them, and it shouldn't be seen as much more.

This thread is meant to be a space for construcive exposure of different points of view on the topic, and that purpose is being served, however...

That's a rather small box of picks

Sure you wouldn't mind if I, and others, were allowed to take a pick from outside of it, would you? I suppose you've heard the expression "think (or in this case - pick) outside the box".
Like the "genuine interest in taxonomic/phenotypical atributions and groupings" pick.
"independent-of-genetics" - add that to that option, as to make another possible one.

Indeed I'm sure you would mind us doing so, as the contrary would be admiting to standing by a lack of imagination for picks, possibly (or not) indicative of a general deficit of understanding and acceptancance of other ways of thinking, and/or the possibility I most hope it's not the case, a childish attempt at insult by categorizing every unlike-minded person on this regard as one of three derogatory options - this attitude in itself possibly being indicative of the third pick of the original box

[Luso]

Yes, when I was classified here I was classified as Atlanto-Med b/c I'm Portuguese. But I’m more of a standard dark med type that you see all over the Mediterranean. The nationality bias phenomenon is very strong here, but that’s expected knowing that especially for southern euros on TA they want to be distinct, you can say “white-a-Fied” and not involved (possibly) with non-euros like (for example) a Levantainian who may overlap! That’s one thing I’ve realized a lot, which isn’t important.. I think there are very distinct looks in Southern Europe that do not overlap, but in cases where they do the bias is very strong to avoid that connection. Or then, In some extreme cases people begin to assume foreign admixture, lol. But in general the pseudoscience is taken seriously by some, while for most (I hope) it’s obviously obsolete IRL, and no one thinks that hard ab looks when passing and talking to people in everyday environments. If the obsession of phenotypes and passing occurs when simply walking around, living in reality, then I’d highly suggest some therapy... I’m serious.

[Alexandro]

Yes, when I was classified here I was classified as Atlanto-Med b/c I was Portuguese. But I’m more of a standard dark med type that you see all over the Mediterranean. The nationality bias phenomenon is very strong here, but that’s expected knowing that especially for southern euros on TA they want to be distinct, you can say “white-a-Fied” and not involved (possibly) with non-euros like (for example) a Levantainian who may overlap! That’s one thing I’ve realized a lot, which isn’t important.. I think there are very distinct looks in Southern Europe that do not overlap, but in cases where they do the bias is very strong. But in general the pseudoscience is taken seriously by some, while for most (I hope) it’s obviously obsolete IRL, and no one thinks that hard ab looks when passing and talking to people in everyday environments. If the obsession of phenotypes and passing occurs when simply walking around, living in reality, then I’d highly suggest some therapy... I’m serious.

What are you talking about? I am a proud Berid ethno-nationalist and we must secure a future for Berid children.

Haha, nah. But yeah, the biased classifications based upon whatever your nationality is are very common, at least my classification seems accurate, but I'm pretty sure if I was born in some Latin American country they'd imagine non Euro features or whatever as happens with a lot of dark Med types.

Pretty much any Med spectrum person can pass in a nation with a sizable population of Meds, there are obviously some phenotypic differences between nations, but IRL most are not perceptive enough to pick up on those. Also, I do think some users on the forum take all of this a little too seriously, and it can't possibly be healthy, but hey, its their life not mine.

[Creoda]

This thread is meant to be a space for construcive exposure of different points of view on the topic, and that purpose is being served, however...

That's a rather small box of picks

Sure you wouldn't mind if I, and others, were allowed to take a pick from outside of it, would you? I suppose you've heard the expression "think (or in this case - pick) outside the box".
Like the "genuine interest in taxonomic/phenotypical atributions and groupings" pick.
"independent-of-genetics" - add that to that option, as to make another possible one.

Indeed I'm sure you would mind us doing so, as the contrary would be admiting to standing by a lack of imagination for picks, possibly (or not) indicative of a general deficit of understanding and acceptancance of other ways of thinking, and/or the possibility I most hope it's not the case, a childish attempt at insult by categorizing every unlike-minded person on this regard as one of three derogatory options - this attitude in itself possibly being indicative of the third pick of the original box

[Immanenz]

This thread is meant to be a space for construcive exposure of different points of view on the topic, and that purpose is being served, however...

That's a rather small box of picks

Sure you wouldn't mind if I, and others, were allowed to take a pick from outside of it, would you? I suppose you've heard the expression "think (or in this case - pick) outside the box".
Like the "genuine interest in taxonomic/phenotypical atributions and groupings" pick.
"independent-of-genetics" - add that to that option, as to make another possible one.

Indeed I'm sure you would mind us doing so, as the contrary would be admiting to standing by a lack of imagination for picks, possibly (or not) indicative of a general deficit of understanding and acceptancance of other ways of thinking, and/or the possibility I most hope it's not the case, a childish attempt at insult by categorizing every unlike-minded person on this regard as one of three derogatory options - this attitude in itself possibly being indicative of the third pick of the original box

Try to find Uralische that Komintsavalta aproves and than you might have a point (it is a mission impossible)

[hurtuv]