W Asians don't score much E Asian using calculators

[Zoro]

It just occurred to me why W. Asians such as Iranics and to a lesser degree Georgians and Armenians don't score much E Asian on Gedmatch calculators and commercial tests such as 23andMe and Ancestry DNA.

Iranics by definition have alot of Central Asian Iranic (Indo-Iranic or Aryan as some would call it) ancestry. The Iron Age Central Asian Indo-Iranians already had some of this Siberian and E Asian ancestry not to mention Iranics also have some Turkic.

First wrt Gedmatch calculators if you check the Caucasian component scores you'll notice Georgians, Armenians and Iranics score alot of it. If Iranics score 40% Caucasus it means the component allele frequencies are largely based on Georgians, Armenians, Abkhasians, and Iranians. In other words the Caucasus component is based on them meaning it hides significant Siberian and E. Asian ancestry.

If you want to flush this hidden Siberian and E. Asian admixture out all you have to do is to make another calculator and make sure you don't add a "Caucasus" component. Better yet when making the calculator make sure you don't have any Caucasians or Iranics in the run.

Wrt to 23andme or Ancestry DNA they blatently use Iranian or Kurd references so obviously if you're an Iranic and score 95% W Asian or Mesopotamian or whatever they call it that's where the Iron Age Central Asian admixture is hiding.

[Dr_Maul]

I don't understand
Central Asian Iranics (TKM_IA for example) were something like 2% EE, if we consider that modern Iranians are about 20-40% of that ancestry then that only comes out to less than 1% in the end
As for the caucasus thing I really don't think Georgians and Armenians are hiding much EE ancestry

[Zoro]

I don't understand
Central Asian Iranics (TKM_IA for example) were something like 2% EE, if we consider that modern Iranians are about 20-40% of that ancestry then that only comes out to less than 1% in the end
As for the caucasus thing I really don't think Georgians and Armenians are hiding much EE ancestry

I don't blame you since it's not easy to understand. I'll give it a try.

To simplify let's say its a K2 calculator with just a Caucasian and E Asian component. Let's say as an Iranian you have 19 genes common to Georgians/Abkhasians and 1 gene common to E Asian.

This will be your admixture score. 19/20 or 95% W Asian and 1/20 or 5% E, Asian

Let's say I change the W Asian component to Kurdish. So now you'll still have 1 E Asian gene but now you'll have 29 Kurdish genes.

Your new admixture score will be 29/30 or 97% W. Asian and 1/30 or 3% E Asian

Let's say I change the W Asian component to Iberian. So now you still have 1 E Asian gene but now you'll have let's say 9 Iberian genes.

Your new admixture score will be 9/10 or 90% W. Asian and 1/10 or 10% E Asian.

CONCLUSION: Even though you have 1 E. Asian gene, your E. Asian score changes from 5% to 3% to 10% E. Asian depending on how genetically the W. Asian component is to you.



Also, Caucasian component is not a component exclusive to Georgians/Abkhasians. It just peaks in them. If you check the spreadsheet Iranians and Kurds also score a decent amount.

So if you want to be technically correct we should label it Georgian/Abkhasian/Armenian/Kurdish/Iranian/etc. So now we have to see how much hidden Siberian/E Asian is hidden in all those groups I just mentioned.

Same thing with Gedrosian. It peaks in Brahui an Baloch but Iranians/Kurds/Pashtuns/N Indians etc score a good amount. So now we have to figure out how much Siberian/E Asian is hidden in those.

Same with other comps.



Expert research via formal stats have shown that Medes already had Indo-Iranian component related to Turkmenistan-IA but Kurds ( I assume many Iranians will be similar) picked up additional IA Steppe and Turkic after Medes. If you look at figure 4 at https://eurasiandna.com/2659-2/ you'll see that Kurds need an additional 7-9% E Asian on top of Hasanlu-IA (Mede)

You can also verify this 10% E Asian with a calculator with "pure" W. Asian such as ENF and WHG and E Asian and Siberian and ANA. You can triple or quadruple verify it with F2s, IBS, qpAdm etc

[Dr_Maul]

You can also verify this 10% E Asian with a calculator with "pure" W. Asian such as ENF and WHG and E Asian and Siberian and ANA. You can triple or quadruple verify it with F2s, IBS, qpAdm etc

But in those calculators it is even low. Running a similar model as your example (ENF Siberian etc) Kurdish average on vahaduo is only getting like 1-2%

[Zoro]

But in those calculators it is even low. Running a similar model as your example (ENF Siberian etc) Kurdish average on vahaduo is only getting like 1-2%

I don't understand. Can you post an example. Use a low K calculator.

Gedmatch Eurasia K3 is far from perfect but it's still better than the others for this type of purpose

[Dr_Maul]

I don't understand. Can you post an example. Use a low K calculator.

Gedmatch Eurasia K3 is far from perfect but it's still better than the others for this type of purpose

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.8512% / 0.01851186
32.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.2 Levant_PPNB
13.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.6 TUR_Barcin_N
1.0 Han

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 2.4473% / 0.02447277
32.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.2 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 Levant_PPNB
14.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 GEO_CHG
0.2 Han

TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Han,0.0206952,-0.4507105,-0.0082967,-0.0651579,0.0780846,0.0374475,0.0029055,-0.004804,-0.0150232,-0.0031146,-0.0495875,-0.0070573,0.0072707,-0.0081072,-0.0043305,0.0012535,0.0017542,-0.0008638,-0.0020455,-0.0102206,0.0122397,0.0069582,0.0141063,-0.0012925,-0.0022315
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537

(I replaced the Kura Axes with CHG on the other one)

[Zoro]

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.8512% / 0.01851186
32.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.2 Levant_PPNB
13.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.6 TUR_Barcin_N
1.0 Han

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 2.4473% / 0.02447277
32.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.2 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 Levant_PPNB
14.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 GEO_CHG
0.2 Han

TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Han,0.0206952,-0.4507105,-0.0082967,-0.0651579,0.0780846,0.0374475,0.0029055,-0.004804,-0.0150232,-0.0031146,-0.0495875,-0.0070573,0.0072707,-0.0081072,-0.0043305,0.0012535,0.0017542,-0.0008638,-0.0020455,-0.0102206,0.0122397,0.0069582,0.0141063,-0.0012925,-0.0022315
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537

(I replaced the Kura Axes with CHG on the other one)

Can you post for Kurmanji kurds

Kurd = Armenians + Bashkir

Kurd = Armenians + Volga Tatar

Kurd = Georgians + Bashkir

Kurd = Georgians + Volga Tatar

I’m trying to figure out the specific issue with g25. I think I know but would like to see

[Dr_Maul]

Can you post for Kurmanji

Does such average exist for G25?

[Zoro]

Does such average exist for G25?

I don’t know much about the populations in G25 but you can use any kurds they have and also try the same models using a low k MDLP or Dodecad

[Zoro]

Here is additional PROOF about how calculators should not be relied on for total E Asian admixture.

These are F2 genetic distances (Admixtools 2) from a high quality WGS 7000 year old E. Asian called Devils-Gate-N. Whole genomes of various Asians and Europeans were used for comparison to maximize overlapping SNPs to 200,000 with no missing SNPs in any of the populations.

You can easily see that these results agree with the qpAdm results for Kurds where Kurds have lower genetic distance to Devils-Gate-N than other W. Asians such as Kayseri Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Hasanlu-IA, Arabs.

I realize that some other Turks would be closer and I would be glad to include them if there are WGS of them so for now I only have Kayseri Turks (2 samples). I also didn't have access to other Iranian WGS samples except for the 2 Fars ones

Keep in mind if a population has S. Eurasian ancestry it would also be higher in the list because there's quite a bit of shared ancestry between S. Eurasian (Onge like) and E. Eurasian

Sorted from closest genetic distance to ancient E. Asian to furthest based on F2 and Z score. W. Asians are highlighted

NO.	POP1	POP2	F2	SE	Z
1	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Eskimo-Chaplin	0.222	0.001	247
2	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Kolyma-Mesol-WGS	0.224	0.001	155
3	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Eskimo-Sireniki	0.224	0.001	276
4	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	China-Tianyuan-UP	0.24	0.002	143
5	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Turkmen	0.241	0.001	222
6	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Bashkir	0.244	0.001	262
7	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Saami	0.247	0.001	288
8	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Yana-UP-WGS	0.249	0.001	189
9	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Tatar-Volga	0.249	0.001	228
10	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Punjabi	0.251	0.001	280
11	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Kurds-IRAQ	0.253	0.001	267
12	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Pathan	0.253	0.001	273
13	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Kalash	0.254	0.001	356
14	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	UstIshim-UP	0.255	0.002	170
15	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Brahui	0.255	0.001	307
16	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	MA1-ANE	0.256	0.002	152
17	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Karelia-EHG	0.256	0.001	183
18	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Balochi	0.256	0.001	270
19	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Turkish-KAYSERI	0.256	0.001	325
20	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Kotias-CHG	0.257	0.001	240
21	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Estonian	0.257	0.001	299
22	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Iranians-FARS	0.258	0.002	172
23	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Georgian	0.258	0.001	263
24	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Sardinian	0.258	0.001	305
25	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Armenian	0.259	0.001	260
26	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Bulgarian	0.259	0.001	316
27	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Iran-Hasanlu-IA	0.26	0.001	218
28	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Villabruna-WHG	0.261	0.001	207
29	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Jordanian	0.261	0.001	271
30	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Saharawi	0.268	0.001	258
31	Devils-Gate-N-WGS	Khomani-San	0.306	0.001	213