G25 models on VURers and other Uralics

[Lemminkäinen]

I see. But that comment actually referred to a Finnish study or something, so cool down your Russophobia

So show me the Finnish source.

I only stated what is true. I have never mocked Russian people, only their history writing. I am a friend of all Russians. Is it true that a few years ago Putin organized a new work to correct wrong history writings in Russian school books. Oh, yes!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/v...flna2D11669160

This would never be seen in Finland

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/v...flna2D11669160

[Lemminkäinen]

Komintasavalta

The demonym for the people of the VUR is VURian or VURer.

Ok.

[Komintasavalta]

Apparently we can get a fairly good fit for Yamnaya_UKR by just using CHG and Volga-Kama_N (which is close to EHGs):

Target: Yamnaya_UKR (d=.056)
61.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
38.8 GEO_CHG

The fits using Karelia_HG or Samara_HG are worse though:

Target: Yamnaya_UKR (d=.067)
57.2 RUS_Karelia_HG
42.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Yamnaya_UKR (d=.069)
60.8 RUS_Samara_HG
39.2 GEO_CHG

I tried calculating two-way distances for Yamnaya_UKR using some of the closest rows to Karelia_HG and the closest rows to GEO_CHG. The best fit was this:

.044 72.6% RUS_Khvalynsk_En + 27.4% Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan

Volga-Kama_N was the next population after RUS_Khvalynsk_En on the non-churka side. Its best fits were these:

.054 57.4% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 42.6% Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
.055 59.2% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 40.8% RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
.056 61.2% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 38.8% GEO_CHG
.057 59.4% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 40.6% Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
.057 59.6% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 40.4% RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
.057 59.6% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 40.4% RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA

Best fit for Samara_HG:

.060 58.6% RUS_Samara_HG + 41.4% Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan

Best fit for Karelia_HG:

.061 44.8% RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En + 55.2% RUS_Karelia_HG

[Leto]

So show me the Finnish source.

I only stated what is true. I have never mocked Russian people, only their history writing. I am a friend of all Russians. Is it true that a few years ago Putin organized a new work to correct wrong history writings in Russian school books. Oh, yes!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/v...flna2D11669160

This would never be seen in Finland

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/v...flna2D11669160

I don't know about that and I don't particularly care about Finnish history either. In Russia Finland is not seen as a significant country, just a land of lakes, forests and reindeers. But I'm pretty sure the Finns would also cover some events as they like, different from the way other nations would do it. That's a common thing in the world. After all, one person's or nation's truth may be another person's or nation's falsehood. As for the source, I don't have it because I only saw one comment. Pretty sure that person had no ill intentions because it was directed at a woman who claimed actual Finnish roots.

[Lemminkäinen]

I don't know about that and I don't particularly care about Finnish history either. In Russia Finland is not seen as a significant country, just a land of lakes, forests and reindeers. But I'm pretty sure the Finns would also cover some events as they like, different from the way other nations would do it. That's a common thing in the world. After all, one person's or nation's truth may be another person's or nation's falsehood. As for the source, I don't have it because I only saw one comment. Pretty sure that person had no ill intentions because it was directed at a woman who claimed actual Finnish roots.

Have I blamed somebody about ill intentions? I only stated that Russians have a Russian history writing. Did I ask about it? It was pretty much like you asked and I answered.

[Zanzibar]

The demonym for the people of the VUR is VURian or VURer.



I think they got it from me, and I maybe first saw it in some paper like Tambets et al. 2018.





It's still 24% in my first model on the left, even though the average distance is crap. Adding GEO_CHG improves the average distance a lot, but then the combined proportion of TUR_Barchin_N and GEO_CHG is still 37% for Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke.



Here's the combined percentage of TUR_Barchin_N and GEO_CHG in the second model above:

64.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
62.0 Yamnaya_BGR
44.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
44.4 RUS_Progress_En
41.8 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
41.4 Yamnaya_UKR
40.8 RUS_Afanasievo
40.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
40.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

I didn't realize that Yamnaya had this much churka/wog ancestry.



Yeah, when I tried to model Yamnaya by putting about 200 mostly neolithic and older population averages in the sources, it was first modeled as mostly RUS_Afanasievo, but then when I removed Afanasievo, RUS_Progress_En became the main component.



Yeah but in the spreadsheet, Udmurts have 13% CHG and Saami have 7%.

This nMonte model for GEO_CHG has shit distance, but you can tell that CHG is a churka component:

$ nm g/25/ma <(aag chg)
Target: GEO_CHG (d=.127)
50.6 Abkhasian
21.0 Ossetian
9.8 Georgian_Imer
9.8 Kubachinian
4.6 Darginian
1.6 Kalash
0.4 Brahui
0.4 Makrani
0.2 Balochi
0.2 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.2 Chechen
0.2 Gujar_India
0.2 Gujar_Pakistan
0.2 Lak
0.2 Manyika
0.2 North_Ossetian
0.2 Pashtun

(`nm` is my shell wrapper for nMonte3.R, and `aag` is a function that greps ancient averages.)

Yup Yamnaya and other Steppe peoples have lots of wog/churka blood. Interesting that Yamnaya_Mereke has around 5% Neolithic in your model. Thought it would be like 2% from my previous runs.

Don't know much about Afanasievo but it seems to be another Steppe group that still has around 10% EEF. Well Progress_Eneolithic is literally a mix of churka/CHG+EHG with little to no Neolithic.

It still seems like Saamis have the lowest wog/churka admix among Europeans in that spreadsheet if you combine EEF+CHG together. Udmurts have more but still a lot less than other Euros. It sucks there are no Maris in the spreadsheet. Want to see if they will have lower CHG+EEF than Saamis or not. Bashkirs probably somewhere between Saamis and Udmurts. Khanty, Mansi definitely have lower churka than Saamis though.

[Leto]

Have I blamed somebody about ill intentions? I only stated that Russians have a Russian history writing. Did I ask about it? It was pretty much like you asked and I answered.

Correcting history books is not wrong per se. As if there are no countless books in the West that distort Russian history or paint it in extremely negative tones.
Yes, thank you for the answer. I'm interested in that only because it's relevant to Russian genetics which I've been exploring for myself. Many Russians would get half Polish half Finnish in oracles.

[Lemminkäinen]

Correcting history books is not wrong per se. As if there are no countless books in the West that distort Russian history or paint it in extremely negative tones.

Why some Russians expect that westerners distort Russian history, but Russians are free of this attitude? Western researchers (historians) do their work without bad intentions, but of course the research is an endless way of iterations. I referred Putin as a politician. They do lie, also in the west. The Finnish history writing has been unchanged for a long time and only details have changed. Genetics is a different case, because we have no more that about 10 years research and it is not yet stable enough to lead to consensus. At least in Finland the tradition of population genetics is weak due to our poor sample collection. Our archaeological tradition is much stronger. In case of East Finnish history we don't need even archaeology, we only need to read original Swedish documents.

Yes, thank you for the answer. I'm interested in that only because it's relevant to Russian genetics which I've been exploring for myself. Many Russians would get half Polish half Finnish in oracles.

The Baltic Finnic influence was strong in NW Russia already before Novgorodians. Tsuhnas or how you called them. There was Baltic Finnic migrations from south to north, from north to south, from east to west and from west to east. It was more like a fluctuating BF gene pool rather than a one-way migration from place to another. Tsuhnas lived in a large region from Sweden to Russia. Every attempt to locate them to Finland, Russia or Estonia makes no sense.

[Komintasavalta]

Well Progress_Eneolithic is literally a mix of churka/CHG+EHG with little to no Neolithic.

Yeah, it seems like half EHG and half CHG:

Distance to: RUS_Progress_En
.052 47.8% GEO_CHG + 52.2% RUS_Karelia_HG
.053 55.4% RUS_Samara_HG + 44.6% GEO_CHG
.055 54.6% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 45.4% GEO_CHG

It sucks there are no Maris in the spreadsheet. Want to see if they will have lower CHG+EEF than Saamis or not. Bashkirs probably somewhere between Saamis and Udmurts. Khanty, Mansi definitely have lower churka than Saamis though.

In the model below, the combined proportion of the first two components is 4 percentage points lower in Saami than in Mari:

7.8 Nenets
11.2 Khanty
12.8 Mansi
16.8 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
22.8 Saami
26.8 Mari
27.4 Bashkir
28.8 Saami_Kola
31.0 Udmurt
33.2 Chuvash
35.2 Komi
35.4 Vepsian
35.6 Karelian
38.8 Finnish
39.6 Tatar_Kazan
41.0 Tatar_Mishar

[Zanzibar]

Yeah, it seems like half EHG and half CHG:

Distance to: RUS_Progress_En
.052 47.8% GEO_CHG + 52.2% RUS_Karelia_HG
.053 55.4% RUS_Samara_HG + 44.6% GEO_CHG
.055 54.6% RUS_Volga-Kama_N + 45.4% GEO_CHG



In the model below, the combined proportion of the first two components is 4 percentage points lower in Saami than in Mari:

7.8 Nenets
11.2 Khanty
12.8 Mansi
16.8 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
22.8 Saami
26.8 Mari
27.4 Bashkir
28.8 Saami_Kola
31.0 Udmurt
33.2 Chuvash
35.2 Komi
35.4 Vepsian
35.6 Karelian
38.8 Finnish
39.6 Tatar_Kazan
41.0 Tatar_Mishar

Interesting. Although keep in mind that the Mari are extremely genetically drifted in G25 so the results could be a bit inaccurate. If we can remove the drift, the two wog components might a bit lower or similar levels to the Saami. Anyway I believe its cause the Saamis are located more isolated in Far North Scandinavia which makes it harder for additional wog blood from mainland Russia to get to them unlike what happen to most VURers.

I think Progress_En is the best for measuring actual amount of churka in Euros as they lack the EEF. I would guess Selkup would have similar amounts of churka/wog to Nenets? It sucks that there are so much wog (CHG+Anatolian) blood among Uralics. It must be nice if they were still purely indigenous HG+Siberian without Anatolian and CHG.

Actually VK2020_NOR_North_LN_HG inflated Anatolian a bit, if you add RUS_Volga_Kama and Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o again, it might lower EEF a bit.

Can you do the same models for the Saami, Mari, Besermyan, Saami_Kola and Chuvash individuals? (try removing the VK2020_NOR_LN_HG and replace it with Baltic_LVA_MN instead, the EEF should go down).