WHG = Cro-Magnons + EHG ?

**Universe** · 03-03-2021, 12:01 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter...herer#Research

WHGs were in turn a mix of EHGs and the Upper Paleolithic people (Cro-Magnon) of the Grotte du Bichon in Switzerland.

No source given though.

**~~Linebacker~~** · 03-03-2021, 12:07 PM

Nobody knows what makeup the Cro-Magnon actually had.

The samples we have that are "WHG" are of late Mesolithic men. There is a lot of time from the Upper Paleolithic to the Late Mesolithic. Long enough for WHG to be very different from early Cro-Magnon.

**vbnetkhio** · 03-04-2021, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Universe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter...herer#Research

No source given though.

That's a bit misleading.

the source is here, page 108:
https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM96_ESM.pdf
WHG is 93% Bichon, 7% EHG.

So Bichon was already basically WHG/Villabruna-like, and the later "proper WHGs" were just slightly EHG shifted.

This could be the migration which brought to r1b-V88 to WHGs.

This model is more informative:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...600&carousel=1

According to this WHG just formed by branching off from Goyet, it isn't a mix.

**PaleoEuropean** · 03-04-2021, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Linebacker

Nobody knows what makeup the Cro-Magnon actually had.

The samples we have that are "WHG" are of late Mesolithic men. There is a lot of time from the Upper Paleolithic to the Late Mesolithic. Long enough for WHG to be very different from early Cro-Magnon.

I agree with this statement. WHG means more Meslothic-Neolithic. The WHG people bred with the C Asiatics before the Mesolithic so they would have some trace of EHG from those people I imagine.

**~~Linebacker~~** · 03-04-2021, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean

I agree with this statement. WHG means more Meslothic-Neolithic. The WHG people bred with the C Asiatics before the Mesolithic so they would have some trace of EHG from those people I imagine.

C1 was most likely the most common haplogroup among Cro-Magnon.

Kostenki 14 and Sungir are the two Upper Paleolithic samples with identified haplogroups (but not full genome) and they are both C1.

**PaleoEuropean** · 03-04-2021, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Linebacker

C1 was most likely the most common haplogroup among Cro-Magnon.

Kostenki 14 and Sungir are the two Upper Paleolithic samples with identified haplogroups (but not full genome) and they are both C1.

For sure, but they came from somewhere before Europe (they were here before haplogroup I if I remember correctly), they had to have come from Asia since they seem to be related to Archaic East Asian Groups like the Ainu.

**Universe** · 03-04-2021, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

That's a bit misleading.

the source is here, page 108:
https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM96_ESM.pdf
WHG is 93% Bichon, 7% EHG.

So Bichon was already basically WHG/Villabruna-like, and the later "proper WHGs" were just slightly EHG shifted.

This could be the migration which brought to r1b-V88 to WHGs.

This model is more informative:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...600&carousel=1

According to this WHG just formed by branching off from Goyet, it isn't a mix.

So La Brana and Loscbour men already had EHG admix?

**vbnetkhio** · 03-04-2021, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Universe

So La Brana and Loscbour men already had EHG admix?

yes, but a very small amount.

**Universe** · 03-04-2021, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

yes, but a very small amount.

This spreadsheet is wrong then? It shows 0% ANE for both. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ns-Spreadsheet

**vbnetkhio** · 03-04-2021, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Universe

This spreadsheet is wrong then? It shows 0% ANE for both. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ns-Spreadsheet

that seems to be unsupervised admixture? It's not very wrong, it's just more focused on modern populations. The WHG which contributed to later populations was Loschbour-like, so it gets detected as 100% WHG.