My updated Eurogenes averages sheet

[Anglo-Celtic]

Here's another weird thing. Almost all of the listed Southern states have "Cornish" and "Welsh" in the top ten. Louisiana is the exception. Some Northern states have no "Celtic" matches, so it might be fitting to refer to the South as Anglo-Celtic, with "Orcadia" in the mix too.

[Creoda]

Creoda's post is extremely interesting. I'm surprised that Massachusetts and New York don't have any kind of "Irish" in the top ten. Mississippi is the only listed state to have "Irish" ("Leinster") in the top ten! I'm somewhat surprised that the Southern states are more "Gaelic" than the Northern states (thanks to those Scottish Appalachian barbarians).

It's because NY and Massachusetts and other places with lots of Irish also have lots of continental and Southern Euro/Jewish ancestry, which makes them more dissimilar to the Irish on average. A fully English area would be much closer to the Irish on average than say a mixed Irish and Italian area.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's another weird thing. Almost all of the listed Southern states have "Cornish" and "Welsh" in the top ten. Louisiana is the exception. Some Northern states have no "Celtic" matches, so it might be fitting to refer to the South as Anglo-Celtic, with "Orcadia" in the mix too.

While it is definitely interesting I personally wouldn't take calculator type programs as giving an accurate result. They will give indications for populations as in some influences but I think you would need to look at IBD and actual dna to get an accurate picture. Just as an example 23&Me is very good at placing a test subject as Irish but Gedmatch not so much. On the traditional Gedmatch K13 for example my no 1 pop is North Dutch but on 23&Me I'm 100% British & Irish. Long strands of dna are inherited as a whole for populations so it is easier to place them in the correct ethnicity if they have good samples. Gedmatch is a calculator so not so accurate but still places someone in the right ball park but not always the correct ethnicity.

With ancient calculators I get high Anglo-Saxon and Germanic similarity but this is because they are my closest distance wise not that I actually descend from them. Bronze Age Irish samples like Rathlin get Scandinavian populations as their top match but on IBD the Scots, Irish and Welsh share the most with them.

Map below using IBD.



Below using K13 with Rathlin samples.

Distance to: rath1_Ireland_BA.SG_3906_ybp
5.11037181 Icelandic
5.23852078 Norwegian
5.27674142 Norway_South_Central
5.53912448 Denmark
5.55328731 Sweden_Götaland
6.13744246 Sweden_Svealand_West
6.60237079 Dutch_North
7.06552900 Swedish
7.08523112 North_German
7.57554618 German_Northwest
7.76987130 Irish_Connacht
7.81783218 Dutch_Central
8.14603585 Orcadian
8.28388798 Scottish
8.33343267 Irish
8.33512447 Dutch
8.41603232 West_Scottish
8.46805763 Irish_Munster
8.66957900 Irish_Ulster
8.78218652 Irish_Leinster
8.94642946 English_North
8.96891298 Sweden_Svealand_East
9.40818792 Welsh
9.75664389 English
9.88108800 English_Midlands

This one is closer to Irish, Scots.

Distance to: rath2_Ireland_BA.SG_3833_ybp
5.28709750 Scottish
5.32043231 Irish_Leinster
5.48137756 Irish_Connacht
5.53985559 Welsh
5.55093686 Irish
5.91972972 English_North
5.95845618 Irish_Ulster
6.07280825 Irish_Munster
6.11162008 English
6.20108055 English_Southwest
6.22079577 English_Midlands
6.23300088 Orcadian
6.29319474 Icelandic
6.36160357 English_Southeast
6.40479508 Cornish
6.44328332 Dutch
6.55254912 Dutch_Central
6.58066866 West_Scottish
6.96468951 Dutch_North
7.02654254 French_Northwest
7.09699232 German_Northwest
7.10850899 North_German
8.01066165 Norwegian
8.10085181 Dutch_South
8.19999390 Denmark

Distance to: rath3_Ireland_BA.SG_3585_ybp
4.37608272 North_German
4.69837206 Swedish
4.94437054 Sweden_Svealand_West
5.09091347 Sweden_Götaland
5.16837499 Denmark
5.27521564 German_Northwest
5.27816256 Norway_South_Central
5.53312751 Norwegian
5.94633501 Icelandic
6.08083876 Sweden_Svealand_East
6.26752742 Dutch_North
6.87200844 Dutch_Central
7.05827883 Dutch
8.41595509 Orcadian
8.47582444 English_North
8.48283561 German
8.85856648 Scottish
8.89167588 English
8.93078944 English_Southeast
8.93615689 English_Midlands
9.15387350 Welsh
9.17431741 Irish_Connacht
9.34048179 Irish_Leinster
9.34629338 English_Southwest
9.52621646 Cornish

Distance to: Rathlin1_IrelandBA_
5.69055358 Icelandic
5.83236659 Norway_South_Central
5.86859438 Norwegian
6.06364577 Denmark
6.09595768 Sweden_Götaland
6.63209620 Sweden_Svealand_West
6.86984716 Dutch_North
7.11062585 North_German
7.33806514 Swedish
7.72016839 German_Northwest
7.93245233 Dutch_Central
8.20658272 Irish_Connacht
8.43234250 Dutch
8.53443613 Orcadian
8.61444717 Scottish
8.71278371 Irish
8.82450565 West_Scottish
8.88689485 Irish_Munster
9.07327394 Irish_Leinster
9.07552202 Irish_Ulster
9.16822229 English_North
9.23033586 Sweden_Svealand_East
9.66238583 Welsh
9.90970232 English
10.03153029 English_Midlands

It's just an example but does show what the issue is. On Gedmatch for example I'll use Daco-Celtic as an example. He is half Romanian and half Irish but will be French/German on Gedmatch. Looking at IBD though and I've seen his Ancestry test he is half Irish (and gets a Cork GC) and half Romanian.

I do think Gedmatch calculators are of value and if you understand them and have seen enough results you can get a pretty good trend. One thing I've noticed is that English are more likely to be closer to South Dutch and Belgians while Irish are closer to North Dutch and Scandinavians. This is for South-East and Southern English. I think Northern English follow more the Irish/Scottish trend.

Anyone feel free to chime in. Always happy to hear opinions from people like Graham and Creoda.

[Creoda]

Right, for individuals Gedmatch calculators are often inaccurate, but they are useful and pretty accurate for comparing population averages to each other, which is what I'm doing here.

[Ayetooey]

While it is definitely interesting I personally wouldn't take calculator type programs as giving an accurate result. They will give indications for populations as in some influences but I think you would need to look at IBD and actual dna to get an accurate picture. Just as an example 23&Me is very good at placing a test subject as Irish but Gedmatch not so much. On the traditional Gedmatch K13 for example my no 1 pop is North Dutch but on 23&Me I'm 100% British & Irish. Long strands of dna are inherited as a whole for populations so it is easier to place them in the correct ethnicity if they have good samples. Gedmatch is a calculator so not so accurate but still places someone in the right ball park but not always the correct ethnicity.

With ancient calculators I get high Anglo-Saxon and Germanic similarity but this is because they are my closest distance wise not that I actually descend from them. Bronze Age Irish samples like Rathlin get Scandinavian populations as their top match but on IBD the Scots, Irish and Welsh share the most with them.

Map below using IBD.



Below using K13 with Rathlin samples.

Distance to: rath1_Ireland_BA.SG_3906_ybp
5.11037181 Icelandic
5.23852078 Norwegian
5.27674142 Norway_South_Central
5.53912448 Denmark
5.55328731 Sweden_Götaland
6.13744246 Sweden_Svealand_West
6.60237079 Dutch_North
7.06552900 Swedish
7.08523112 North_German
7.57554618 German_Northwest
7.76987130 Irish_Connacht
7.81783218 Dutch_Central
8.14603585 Orcadian
8.28388798 Scottish
8.33343267 Irish
8.33512447 Dutch
8.41603232 West_Scottish
8.46805763 Irish_Munster
8.66957900 Irish_Ulster
8.78218652 Irish_Leinster
8.94642946 English_North
8.96891298 Sweden_Svealand_East
9.40818792 Welsh
9.75664389 English
9.88108800 English_Midlands

This one is closer to Irish, Scots.

Distance to: rath2_Ireland_BA.SG_3833_ybp
5.28709750 Scottish
5.32043231 Irish_Leinster
5.48137756 Irish_Connacht
5.53985559 Welsh
5.55093686 Irish
5.91972972 English_North
5.95845618 Irish_Ulster
6.07280825 Irish_Munster
6.11162008 English
6.20108055 English_Southwest
6.22079577 English_Midlands
6.23300088 Orcadian
6.29319474 Icelandic
6.36160357 English_Southeast
6.40479508 Cornish
6.44328332 Dutch
6.55254912 Dutch_Central
6.58066866 West_Scottish
6.96468951 Dutch_North
7.02654254 French_Northwest
7.09699232 German_Northwest
7.10850899 North_German
8.01066165 Norwegian
8.10085181 Dutch_South
8.19999390 Denmark

Distance to: rath3_Ireland_BA.SG_3585_ybp
4.37608272 North_German
4.69837206 Swedish
4.94437054 Sweden_Svealand_West
5.09091347 Sweden_Götaland
5.16837499 Denmark
5.27521564 German_Northwest
5.27816256 Norway_South_Central
5.53312751 Norwegian
5.94633501 Icelandic
6.08083876 Sweden_Svealand_East
6.26752742 Dutch_North
6.87200844 Dutch_Central
7.05827883 Dutch
8.41595509 Orcadian
8.47582444 English_North
8.48283561 German
8.85856648 Scottish
8.89167588 English
8.93078944 English_Southeast
8.93615689 English_Midlands
9.15387350 Welsh
9.17431741 Irish_Connacht
9.34048179 Irish_Leinster
9.34629338 English_Southwest
9.52621646 Cornish

Distance to: Rathlin1_IrelandBA_
5.69055358 Icelandic
5.83236659 Norway_South_Central
5.86859438 Norwegian
6.06364577 Denmark
6.09595768 Sweden_Götaland
6.63209620 Sweden_Svealand_West
6.86984716 Dutch_North
7.11062585 North_German
7.33806514 Swedish
7.72016839 German_Northwest
7.93245233 Dutch_Central
8.20658272 Irish_Connacht
8.43234250 Dutch
8.53443613 Orcadian
8.61444717 Scottish
8.71278371 Irish
8.82450565 West_Scottish
8.88689485 Irish_Munster
9.07327394 Irish_Leinster
9.07552202 Irish_Ulster
9.16822229 English_North
9.23033586 Sweden_Svealand_East
9.66238583 Welsh
9.90970232 English
10.03153029 English_Midlands

It's just an example but does show what the issue is. On Gedmatch for example I'll use Daco-Celtic as an example. He is half Romanian and half Irish but will be French/German on Gedmatch. Looking at IBD though and I've seen his Ancestry test he is half Irish (and gets a Cork GC) and half Romanian.

I do think Gedmatch calculators are of value and if you understand them and have seen enough results you can get a pretty good trend. One thing I've noticed is that English are more likely to be closer to South Dutch and Belgians while Irish are closer to North Dutch and Scandinavians. This is for South-East and Southern English. I think Northern English follow more the Irish/Scottish trend.

Anyone feel free to chime in. Always happy to hear opinions from people like Graham and Creoda.

None of the English averages on vahaduo are that close to Belgians tbh, and the distance between north/south England is pretty small, there doesn’t seem to be a meaningful distance and it seems to be more based off the individual sample if anything.

[Grace O'Malley]

None of the English averages on vahaduo are that close to Belgians tbh, and the distance between north/south England is pretty small, there doesn’t seem to be a meaningful distance and it seems to be more based off the individual sample if anything.

It was definitely something noted on Gedmatch in the past on the old Eurogenes. There was a trend for Southeast English to be closer to South Dutch/Belgians. There is a lot of posts of examples on many forums. With vahaduo many of the calculators have been updated by people on this forum like Creoda and others. I'm not sure what all these new calculators show but it was a trend that was the case in the older Gedmatch calculators. I also thought it made sense when you understand that the Southeast English have a southern pull different than the rest of the Isles populations and it was something that I have noticed with Gedmatch calculator results in the past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43712587

The English poster on here who is Southeast English also has that trend in his results.

[Ayetooey]

It was definitely something noted on Gedmatch in the past on the old Eurogenes. There was a trend for Southeast English to be closer to South Dutch/Belgians. There is a lot of posts of examples on many forums. With vahaduo many of the calculators have been updated by people on this forum like Creoda and others. I'm not sure what all these new calculators show but it was a trend that was the case in the older Gedmatch calculators. I also thought it made sense when you understand that the Southeast English have a southern pull different than the rest of the Isles populations and it was something that I have noticed with Gedmatch calculator results in the past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43712587

The English poster on here who is Southeast English also has that trend in his results.

The new average. I don’t really think the old averages were great. A lot of people scoring Dutch before their own nation and that doesn’t happen with the new one. Anyway Belgians are clearly pretty distant, North Dutch are actually closer.

[Grace O'Malley]

The new average. I don’t really think the old averages were great. A lot of people scoring Dutch before their own nation and that doesn’t happen with the new one. Anyway Belgians are clearly pretty distant, North Dutch are actually closer.

Yes I'm just going to post that.

Distance to: Irish_Connacht
0.73334848 Irish
1.01651365 Irish_Munster
1.22788436 Irish_Ulster
1.69643744 Irish_Leinster
1.84778245 Scottish
1.95951525 West_Scottish
3.12635571 Welsh
3.20134347 Orcadian
3.68585133 English_North
4.35547931 Icelandic
4.40984127 Cornish
4.48754944 English_Southwest
4.57062359 English
4.72878420 English_Midlands
5.25566361 Dutch_North
5.29903765 Dutch_Central
5.42839755 English_Southeast
5.47437668 Dutch
6.28401146 Norwegian
6.43098748 French_Northwest
6.51930978 Denmark
6.69664095 German_Northwest
6.95208602 Norway_South_Central
7.23535072 Sweden_Götaland
7.67446415 North_German


Distance to: English_Southeast
0.84988234 English_Midlands
0.96441692 English
1.45574723 English_Southwest
1.63847490 Cornish
2.03548520 English_North
2.22159852 French_Northwest
2.55749878 Welsh
2.58032944 Dutch
3.24772228 Dutch_Central
3.52292492 Dutch_South
3.66833750 Orcadian
3.71241162 Scottish
3.98449495 Irish_Leinster
4.36819185 German_Northwest
4.38011415 Flemish
4.70354122 Dutch_North
5.06510612 Irish
5.11855448 Belgian
5.30299915 West_Scottish
5.42839755 Irish_Connacht
5.53087696 Irish_Munster
5.56070139 German_West
5.74719932 North_German
5.80185315 Afrikaner
5.92790013 Irish_Ulster

I think you can still see the trend above. Notice that Southeast English get Belgian and Dutch South in the list while the Irish trend a bit more Scandinavian? I think that pattern is there.

[Creoda]

Yeah, some English, particularly from the Southeast plot with South Dutch but in general they aren't that close. South Dutch/Belgians are more like West Germans, they have quite low North Atlantic. English generally are closer to Central Dutch/Hollanders, but more southern shifted.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yeah, some English, particularly from the Southeast plot with South Dutch but in general they aren't that close. South Dutch/Belgians are more like West Germans, they have quite low North Atlantic. English generally are closer to Central Dutch/Hollanders, but more southern shifted.

It was just a trend that was noticeable. You need large samples though. There is variance in all populations and it would be wonderful if that Southeast English study gets published and hopefully this year sometime.