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Thread: Proto-Slavs were more northern than Ukrainian average?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    North Italian like samples can be local Celts, I don't see what else could they be.
    Nah, more likely LIB11 is a Celt mixed with Scythian (?) - like one of Hallstatt Bylany samples* - and LIB3 is a Roman settler woman.

    *One of the two Hallstatt Bylany samples is eastern-shifted.

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    LIB3 - most likely a Roman settler:

    Distances:
    0.03282935 Italian_Liguria
    0.03287600 Italian_Lombardy
    0.03422651 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03574889 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03706812 French_Corsica
    0.03807683 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03815278 ITA_Rome_MA
    0.03986653 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04014426 Italian_Veneto
    0.04078530 Spanish_Menorca
    0.04086796 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.04131145 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
    0.04139676 Swiss_Italian
    0.04190140 Italian_Marche
    (...)

    LIB11 - Celt mixed with Scythian (?):
    [like one of two Hallstatt Bylany samples]

    Distances:
    0.03345309 Croatian
    0.03521847 Hungarian
    0.03652741 Czech
    0.03695524 Slovenian
    0.03850720 German_East
    0.03905881 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.03970358 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA
    0.04049698 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
    0.04163237 Polish
    0.04185553 Bosnian
    0.04282839 Slovakian
    0.04312049 Austrian
    (...)

    ^^^
    LIB11 is a pre-Slavic sample, but looks like it has a lot of "Balto-Slavic-like" type of ancestry. In any case, something North-Eastern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vbnetkhio View Post
    All from Moravia?
    So far Y-DNA reported was I-S17250, I-A815, R-Y2608, R-Z92. E-L241. Hopefully alot more will be reported soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian View Post
    The Bulgarian/Moldavian ones are probably Hungarian Scythians(very southern) mixed with Slavs, maybe even people brought over by groups like the Huns, not likely to be natives+Slavs given BA and Hallstatt genomes from the region.
    Those are more likely Roman admixed than Pannonian Scythian, they have an East Med/west Asian shift

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    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post766254

    Target: Migration:LIB11
    Distance: 3.3723% / 0.03372313
    35.8 Baltic_EST_IA
    32.6 DEU_Singen_EIA
    13.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
    8.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
    3.6 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
    3.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
    1.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    1.0 KEN_Pastoral_IA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    LIB3 - most likely a Roman settler:

    Distances:
    0.03282935 Italian_Liguria
    0.03287600 Italian_Lombardy
    0.03422651 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03574889 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03706812 French_Corsica
    0.03807683 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03815278 ITA_Rome_MA
    0.03986653 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04014426 Italian_Veneto
    0.04078530 Spanish_Menorca
    0.04086796 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.04131145 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
    0.04139676 Swiss_Italian
    0.04190140 Italian_Marche
    (...)

    LIB11 - Celt mixed with Scythian (?):
    [like one of two Hallstatt Bylany samples]

    Distances:
    0.03345309 Croatian
    0.03521847 Hungarian
    0.03652741 Czech
    0.03695524 Slovenian
    0.03850720 German_East
    0.03905881 Sorb_Niederlausitz
    0.03970358 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA
    0.04049698 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
    0.04163237 Polish
    0.04185553 Bosnian
    0.04282839 Slovakian
    0.04312049 Austrian
    (...)

    ^^^
    LIB11 is a pre-Slavic sample, but looks like it has a lot of "Balto-Slavic-like" type of ancestry. In any case, something North-Eastern.
    Roman settlers in Moravia? Possible, but the Romans didn't even hold parts of northern Austria. They could also be Balkanites brought up by the Huns or other steppe nomadic groups, as pre-Slavic Italian-like genomes are found in the Balkans up to Moldova, although usually more central Italian-like.
    The Guanche skulls as a whole are unlike those of modern European Mediterraneans, and resemble northern European series most closely, especially those in which a brachycephalic element is present, as in Burgundian and Alemanni series.
    divided them into clearly differentiated types, which include a Mediterranean, a Nordic, a "Guanche," and an Alpine. The "Guanche" accounts for 50 per cent of the whole on the four islands of Teneriffe, Gomera, Gran Canaria, and Hierro; the Nordic for 31 per cent, the Mediterranean for 13 per cent, and the Alpine
    oldschool anthropology

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    LIB3 - most likely a Roman settler:
    Nope. There were no Romans in Czech Republic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XenophobicPrussian View Post
    Roman settlers in Moravia? Possible, but the Romans didn't even hold parts of northern Austria. They could also be Balkanites brought up by the Huns or other steppe nomadic groups, as pre-Slavic Italian-like genomes are found in the Balkans up to Moldova, although usually more central Italian-like.
    It's a nonsense, such type of ancestry is present until southern Poland and west Ukraine and is obviously local in origin, nothing to do with "Romans", "Balkanites" or whatever.

    "Balkanites brought up by Huns" lmao. What is next "Arabs brought by Siberians"?

    Incredibly stupid and nonsensical theories, no offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    Nope. There were no Romans in Czech Republic.
    The samples are from Breclav not far from the Roman Empire's Danube border:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

    https://omniatlas.com/maps/europe/260630/

    Roman Army's camp discovered in Czech Republic's South Moravian Region:

    https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...-in-czech.html



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_fort,_Mu%C5%A1ov


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    It's a nonsense, such type of ancestry is present until southern Poland and west Ukraine and is obviously local in origin, nothing to do with "Romans", "Balkanites" or whatever.

    "Balkanites brought up by Huns" lmao. What is next "Arabs brought by Siberians"?

    Incredibly stupid and nonsensical theories, no offense.
    Where are these southern shifted samples in southern Poland and west Ukraine? Show me them. Such type of ancestry being present in modern Poles and Ukrainians is irrelevant. The most southern shifted samples from the region are Iberian-like, with a couple North Italian like in southern Bavaria and Hungary in the Bronze Age that were undoubtably gone into the French-like average by the Iron Age(speaking of Bavaria specifically, Hungary was always a population sink for exotic ancestries, and is included when I refer to "Balkanites" unless you just want to argue semantics now). You don't get Bulgarian from North Italian or Iberia + Slavic anyway, you need extra East Med/Caucasus. You can get Croatian and Moldovan from N. Italian+Slavic, but not Bulgarian.

    Here is a PCA plot of all Central European Beakers, including Hungarian ones(although I don't argue against later exotic ancestry in Hungary, it isn't exactly "native" though):



    Where is all this exotic ancestry? There is one North Italian(again, undoubtably gone post-Bronze Age until more exotic East Med shifted groups like Scythians arrive), but where is the even more southern ancestry needed to get modern Bulgarians, as seen in the Moravian early Medieval samples?

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

    Here are all the relevant coords around the region, from CW/BB in southern Poland to Switzerland, plot them yourself on the "Europe1" PCA and show me these exotic samples:

    Spoiler!


    So, where are all these North Italians, and even more east Med/southern shifted Italians required to get Bulgarian when mixed with Slavic?


    CHE_IA probably represents the most southern shifted people in this Switzerland to Bavaria, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia, southern Poland region, and yes, the average for the Alpine region after steppe and neolithic ancestries had mixed into a homogenous population, and are likely the best proxy for average Alpine Celts. Plot these on the PCA I linked and see how it paints a very clear picture how anything more southern would be from outside the region, there is no ancestry here that can lead to N. Italian or Bulgarian:

    Spoiler!


    Now, plot these Balkanites and European/non-Mongoloid steppe groups in the Balkans(most of them very recent samples too), and see where this ancestry can actually come from:

    Spoiler!


    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina
    "Balkanites brought up by Huns" lmao. What is next "Arabs brought by Siberians"?
    k, now plot these literal Huns from Bavaria and see where they plot. How do you think they wound up plotting like this without any admixture from Balkan or related groups?

    Spoiler!


    You might even be right about Western or Southern Ukraine given how southern shifted ancient Moldovans are, but the point the remains, they're still not from the region.

    You are smarter than this, Stearsolina. Probably been listening too much anti-Hun non-sense from your husband. The Huns were one of the most significant groups in European history, and they were not just homogenous people who kept their genetic profile from the steppe, they adopted people from everywhere they went, including Germanics of which Gothic was likely their lingua franca, and Balkanites, literally the first place they significantly set up shop in Europe. It is now proven by a genetic paper that Visigoths brought pure Balkanites and Balkanite related ancestry(a place they passed through) with them all the way to Iberia, this is not only proven by autosomal but Y-DNA. Visigoths were a far less significant group than the Huns, and you mean to tell me this theory is nonsensical and akin to "Arabs being brought by Siberians". You should know you're wrong here solely by Token thumbing you up, a person who I had to personally convince and argue tooth and nail multiple times actual original Alpine Celts are going to be much more southern shifted and not Bell Beaker, British, Scandinavian-like, now he wants to thumb up native Moravians being N. Italian like or having ancestry that can lead to a Bulgarian-like profile. Get fucking real here.
    The Guanche skulls as a whole are unlike those of modern European Mediterraneans, and resemble northern European series most closely, especially those in which a brachycephalic element is present, as in Burgundian and Alemanni series.
    divided them into clearly differentiated types, which include a Mediterranean, a Nordic, a "Guanche," and an Alpine. The "Guanche" accounts for 50 per cent of the whole on the four islands of Teneriffe, Gomera, Gran Canaria, and Hierro; the Nordic for 31 per cent, the Mediterranean for 13 per cent, and the Alpine
    oldschool anthropology

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