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Thread: Proto-Slavs were more northern than Ukrainian average?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Even some of Krakauer Berg samples are "Lithuanian-like" in Global25. But when I use K36 they are not similar to Lithuanians.

    With K36 averages only KRA007 is Lithuanian-shifted:

    Sample - closest populations (top three):

    KRA001 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
    KRA002 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Czesi
    KRA003 - 1. Poles, 2. Lusatian Sorbs, 3. Czesi
    KRA004 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians
    KRA005 - 1. Ukrainians, 2. Poles, 3. Belarusians
    KRA006 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
    KRA007 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Lithuanians
    KRA008 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
    KRA009 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
    KRA010 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
    KRA011 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians

    =====

    BTW, there are also some Slavs in this study (samples from Late Medieval Lübeck):

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3762113

    So far I checked two:

    Lübeck_HGH1600:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    IS_Iceland
    0.9041875
    NL_Overijssel
    0.9436731
    DK_Northern-Jutland
    0.9439364
    DK_Faroe-Islands
    0.9491206
    GB_Shetland
    0.9769964
    DE_Westfalen
    0.9770727
    DK_Zealand
    0.9776641
    NO_Vestlandet
    0.9782811
    (...)

    Lübeck_HGH1579:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    DE_Nordfriesland
    1.094312
    NL_Drenthe
    1.166477
    NL_Noord-Holland
    1.224142
    DE_Schleswig
    1.226541
    DE_Niedersachsen
    1.242422
    NL_Gelderland
    1.257951
    (...)
    any luck with those anceint Polish BAMs I posted in the other thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    "Ukrainian_Belgorod" and "SW_Russian" are almost the same, Belgorod is SW Russia. I would personally remove it and replace with something like "Ukrainian_Kharkov" (at least on Ukrainian territory). Davidski made it up basically.
    the town is wrongly chosen or what?



    Ukrainian Belgorod is very South Ukrainian

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post

    -Ukrainian Belgorod (Ukrainians from city in southern Russia who are more northern than Ukrainian average)
    It should be noted that out of 6 academic samples of Ukrainians from Belgorod, half (three) are closest matches, that is, relatives:

    MW3377762 UkrBel614 EN2489269 UkrBel618 LV6894312 UkrBel620

    Sloboda Ukraine was settled by Ukrainians from different regions. Here is another Ukrainian from the Belgorod region:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 45.79
    2 North_Atlantic 30.87
    3 East_Med 7.86
    4 West_Med 6.92
    5 West_Asian 4.8
    6 South_Asian 2.11
    7 Amerindian 1.55
    8 Oceanian 0.07
    9 Siberian 0.03

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Belorussian 5.13
    2 Polish 5.14
    3 Russian_Smolensk 5.66
    4 Estonian_Polish 5.72
    5 Southwest_Russian 5.77
    6 South_Polish 5.89
    7 Ukrainian_Belgorod 6.46
    8 Ukrainian 6.47
    9 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.61
    10 Estonian 8.85
    11 Lithuanian 9.36
    12 Finnish 10.37
    13 Kargopol_Russian 10.45
    14 Southwest_Finnish 10.62
    15 Croatian 12.01
    16 East_Finnish 12.09
    17 Erzya 13
    18 Hungarian 14.07
    19 East_German 15.17
    20 Moldavian 15.19

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    Proto-Slavs were more northern than Ukrainian average?
    ...or more southern. What interested me was the ratio of Mediterranean components to K13. For most Slavs, it is very similar, regardless of the total percentage of the Mediterranean admixture. For example, the West Med component predominates approximately one and a half to two times over the West Asian and East Med components. This is especially true of the area of Prague culture, but also can be found in other Slavic regions:

    Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
    Russian_Southwest,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.26,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
    Ukrainian,26.53,45.54,10.39,5.93,6.34,0.90,0.97,0.43,1.33,0.70,0.47,0.19,0.27
    Ukrainian_Galicia,27.87,39.97,12.58,7.17,7.51,1.27,1.03,0.33,1.17,0.57,0.37,0.09,0.07
    Ukrainian_Carpathian,26.50,38.13,13.24,7.09,9.82,1.21,1.06,0.35,1.41,0.65,0.25,0.16,0.13
    Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
    Czech,33.53,37.14,12.43,5.94,7,0.9,1.18,0.14,0.66,0.59,0.26,0.19,0.13
    South_Polish,30.66,42.03,11.08,6.56,6.22,0.35,1.02,0.45,0.97,0.07,0.25,0.12,0.22
    Slovenian,31.53,34.36,14.60,6.52,9.66,1.01,0.64,0.32,0.30,0.43,0.39,0.12,0.12
    Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21

    Then there is one more point. The Carpathian Ukrainians are very similar to the northern Hungarians, Croats and Slovaks. At the same time, all of the above populations are extremely different from those samples of autochthons (Illyrians and Celts) who lived in Croatia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, etc. Of course, these samples are still few in number. But if the Celts and Illyrians really looked like the Spaniards / Italians / French, then this means that the above Slavic peoples absorbed little of the pre-Slavic substrate, that is, they formed autosomally and anthropologically somewhere on the territory of Galicia and their ancestors migrated from there, spreading the Prague culture ... Otherwise, there would be a sharp autosomal gradient from Prykarpatsya to Croatia, etc. And this gradient is very weak, in contrast to the gradient from the Carpathians to Volyn.

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    But Carpatho-Ruthenians have well known Vlach/Romanian/Moldovan admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    But Carpatho-Ruthenians have well known Vlach/Romanian/Moldovan admixture.
    What about Slovaks, South Poles and Slovenians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    Yeah they are. But Russians living near Belarus are similarly Baltic admixed ofc.



    Jews IMO, as far as I remember it's one of several typical Jewish mtdnas.
    I’ve considered the latter point, but I know some insist N1b1 aren’t really Jewish, but late Neolithic or something. I don’t know. In addition, my mother’s X chromosome on 23andme is painted exclusively as Eastern European.

    Note: All that does not rule anything out, just adding some anecdotal stuff.
    Last edited by CordedWhelp; 04-05-2021 at 08:55 PM.

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    Considering the deep relationship between Baltic and Slavic I'm anticipating proto-Slavs to be very close to proto-Balts. I can't see proto-Balts starting off as an Ukrainian-like population but proto-Slavs being Latvian-like originally does sound rather probable. Early Medieval Slavs = proto-Slavs(Baltic-like) + Carpathian Celto-Roman?
    Last edited by Aren; 04-05-2021 at 10:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    Considering the deep relationship between Baltic and Slavic I'm anticipating proto-Slavs to be very close to proto-Balts. I can't see proto-Balts starting off as an Ukrainian-like population but proto-Slavs being Latvian-like originally does sound rather probable. Early Medieval Slavs = proto-Slavs(Baltic-like) + Carpinthian Celto-Roman?
    Latvians are part Finnic, so that is not likely. Too extreme. Lithuanians, yes.
    It's possible early Slavs formed as more southern population after absorbing Celtic like I2-din carriers, while Balts absorbed N1c input.
    Even though I don't see much N1c like au input in Balts, there is lot of such hg but au doesn't seem that present.

    If we even knew how did N1c au look like. I don't, but I imagine it as sth super northeastern with siberian (and Balts have little to none siberian in au)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    Latvians are part Finnic, so that is not likely. Too extreme. Lithuanians, yes.
    It's possible early Slavs formed as more southern population after absorbing Celtic like I2-din carriers, while Balts absorbed N1c input.
    Even though I don't see much N1c like au input in Balts, there is lot of such hg but au doesn't seem that present.

    If we even knew how did N1c au look like. I don't, but I imagine it as sth super northeastern with siberian (and Balts have little to none siberian in au)
    Early Finnics, as the IA Tarand grave genomes were basically assimilated Balts anyways with very little actual Uralic admixture so whatever mixing that has happend between Latvians and Estonians it didn't change much. However I do suspect that Lithuanians have some significant Polish ancestry. So IMO Latvians are closer to proto-Balts, not that it matters though as Latvians and Lithuanians are basically the same population autosomally speaking.

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