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Thread: Uniqueness of the Basques

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    And more averages and proxies made with those references:

    Code:
    Basque_Spanish:Álava+Vizcaya+Guipúzcoa,0.129991,0.149167,0.056997,0.012494,0.055500,0.003378,-0.002419,0.001563,0.027206,0.040962,-0.006451,0.011744,-0.022424,-0.017409,0.015722,0.002712,-0.004439,0.001699,-0.000446,-0.003144,0.008720,0.001180,-0.008123,-0.008846,0.000664
    Basque_Spanish:NWNavarra+CentralNavarra+Roncal,0.129310,0.149037,0.054888,0.009455,0.054583,0.000913,-0.001852,0.000510,0.030555,0.042351,-0.005447,0.010695,-0.021966,-0.018333,0.014925,0.001450,-0.003844,0.003263,-0.002263,-0.001497,0.008530,0.001308,-0.007036,-0.009202,0.001335
    French_SouthWest:Bigorre+Lands-Chalosse+Bearn,0.127861,0.146643,0.052583,0.007504,0.052502,0.001367,-0.000964,-0.000038,0.024843,0.039272,-0.004883,0.009022,-0.020272,-0.014519,0.011333,0.001529,-0.004903,0.001047,-0.001136,-0.002818,0.005416,0.001698,-0.005875,-0.007246,-0.000128
    Spanish_Basque:PaísVasco&Navarra,0.129699,0.149111,0.056093,0.011192,0.055107,0.002322,-0.002176,0.001112,0.028641,0.041557,-0.006021,0.011295,-0.022228,-0.017805,0.015380,0.002171,-0.004184,0.002369,-0.001224,-0.002438,0.008639,0.001235,-0.007657,-0.008998,0.000952
    French_Basque:Labourd+Soule+Basse-Navarre,0.131034,0.151560,0.056420,0.009945,0.057083,0.001056,-0.001994,0.002063,0.031676,0.043157,-0.005418,0.011562,-0.022695,-0.016615,0.015419,0.000028,-0.008538,0.001451,-0.001067,-0.004244,0.008043,0.001169,-0.008127,-0.009059,0.002965
    Vizcaya,0.12524,0.14984,0.05337,0.01024,0.05277,0.00356,-0.00141,0.00227,0.02664,0.03842,-0.00652,0.01280,-0.02194,-0.01686,0.01310,0.00110,-0.00523,0.00231,-0.00100,-0.00199,0.00858,0.00060,-0.00622,-0.00647,0.00089
    Álava,0.125599,0.148101,0.054389,0.008932,0.051660,0.000464,-0.001513,0.002484,0.024714,0.037927,-0.006911,0.009125,-0.020534,-0.013806,0.013660,0.000570,-0.006648,-0.000023,-0.001547,-0.003925,0.008386,0.001300,-0.004499,-0.004182,-0.000612
    Guipúzcoa,0.131103,0.148914,0.055917,0.011731,0.055885,0.001585,-0.003183,0.000608,0.028327,0.041923,-0.005661,0.011322,-0.021495,-0.018629,0.015626,0.005406,-0.002857,0.001969,-0.001245,-0.003161,0.007929,0.000551,-0.010437,-0.010166,0.001660
    Navarra,0.125397,0.147678,0.049400,0.004806,0.051055,0.000264,-0.001735,-0.000502,0.027031,0.039170,-0.004948,0.010627,-0.018619,-0.016807,0.014979,0.002858,-0.005206,0.002349,-0.002617,-0.001738,0.005902,0.001461,-0.006537,-0.004817,0.002340

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    Quote Originally Posted by gixajo View Post
    Ah yes, that paper has a has a veiled political bias, for example, Álava is just represented by 11 samples from Aramayona, a valley with 1500 inhabitants, and they forgot the 99% of Álava population that was not Basque-speaker since at least XVI century, and same for Nabarre, just represented by its Basque-speaker areas population that is about 8% of the total Nabarrese population.

    Álava is a mix between "pure" Basque areas and North Burgos, and Nabarre same, but "pure" Basque+North Aragón /Aragón depending areas.

    And I laugh a lot when they labelled "West" Biscay form Bilbao to Cantabria (Encartaciones, Carranza, etc...) in a different way than Basques samples.

    We have posted G25 individual samples and averages here and Anthrogenica, the last week, and made some models with them.

    Basque samples are ok, but we had already 2 averages for point that "pure" Basque component, so I found more interesting the "Bascoid" or "pero-Basques" samples from North Burgos, La Rioja, West-Biscay, Cantabria and South France.
    how many genetically "pure basques" actually exist in Spain today ?
    not many i bet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mopi View Post
    how many genetically "pure basques" actually exist in Spain today ?
    not many i bet
    I would say less than 30% of the total population of the considered Basque regions in Spain and in SouthWest France.

    Maybe more, or maybe less.

    But it is all very diffuse, it is not even known Basques were originally from the current Basques territories in Spain. It is thought that it could be a contribution of people that when the Romans arrived on the peninsula they were already settled or assimilated in areas of present-day Navarre and the high Aragonese Pyrenees and that entered en masse after the fall of Rome, who were people culturally related to the peninsula and from very Iberian close or similar genetics , peoples coming from SW France.

    All those ancestry mix models used 3 Berones samples that were not properly Vascones, we have not yet any Vascones tribe sample to see how they were exactly.

    Sorry my text I must go and I cannot corrected it just now, maybe it´s somewhat bad wrote.

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    @gixajo I could have sworn that you had commented that this study on the Basques had been very scarce and unrepresentative.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallop View Post
    @gixajo I could have sworn that you had commented that this study on the Basques had been very scarce and unrepresentative.


    Quote Originally Posted by gixajo View Post
    Ah yes, that paper has a has a veiled political bias, for example, Álava is just represented by 11 samples from Aramayona, a valley with 1500 inhabitants, and they forgot the 99% of Álava population that was not Basque-speaker since at least XVI century, and same for Nabarre, just represented by its Basque-speaker areas population that is about 8% of the total Nabarrese population.

    Álava is a mix between "pure" Basque areas and North Burgos, and Nabarre same, but "pure" Basque+North Aragón /Aragón depending areas.

    And I laugh a lot when they labelled "West" Biscay from Bilbao to Cantabria (Encartaciones, Carranza, etc...) in a different way than Basques samples.

    We have posted G25 individual samples and averages here and Anthrogenica, the last week, and made some models with them.

    Basque samples are ok, but we had already 2 averages for point that "pure" Basque component, so I found more interesting the "Bascoid" or "peri-Basques" samples from North Burgos, La Rioja, West-Biscay, Cantabria and South France.
    So they are representative of that "pure" Basque component, but not representative to use them as provincial references, and not only because the nowadays population is more mixed, but also because some provinces (or region as Nabarre)are not so "Basques" from a genetic point of view.

    Edit: But we can understand that the purpose of the paper was not todetermine good provincial references, the paper ismade tolink the pure BAsque component with the areas which have more % of traditional Basque-speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gixajo View Post
    All those ancestry mix models used 3 Berones samples that were not properly Vascones, we have not yet any Vascones tribe sample to see how they were exactly.
    I didn't read the whole study, but they just labelled the source as "Iberian IA" in their models, they don't mean necessarily samples from La Hoya, which would be Iberia_North_IA in the original study. Olalde's had samples from multiple sites, the Berones were just the ones who had the highest amount of steppe-ancestry (edit: and those form Empuries), there were others that had significantly less, but had a lot more WHG ancestry. In fact Olalde's models had the medieval pre-muslim population (non-Basque) as 80% La Hoya and 20% Greek, so why are these models showing values as low as 50% autochthonous and nearly 50% Roman, despite those being very similar to modern non-Basque Iberians? What is the "Roman" component they are using, anyway? They don't tell you that either. Why do Basques, who have less steppe ancestry that non-Basque Spanish/Iberians, score twice as much "Iberia IA" than some of the others, yet there's no reference to compensate the difference? Why is North African virtually non-existant in most of the peninsula? This study's models seem to be lacking, they don't explore options all that well, and don't inform as much as they should.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    They just labelled the source as "Iberian IA" in their models, they don't mean necessarily samples from La Hoya, which would be Iberia_North_IA in the original study. Olalde's had samples from multiple sites, the Berones were just the ones who had the highest amount of steppe-ancestry, there were others that had significantly less, but had a lot more WHG ancestry. In fact Olalde's models had the medieval pre-muslim population (non-Basque) as 80% La Hoya and 20% Greek, so why are these models showing values as low as 50% autochthonous and nearly 50% Roman, despite those being very similar to modern non-Basque Iberians? What is the "Roman" component they are using, anyway? They don't tell you that either. Why do Basques, who have less steppe ancestry that non-Basque Spanish/Iberians, score twice as much "Iberia IA" than some of the others, yet there's no reference to compensate the difference? Why is North African virtually non-existant in most of the peninsula? This study's models seem to be lacking, they don't explore options all that well, and don't inform as much as they should.
    I would bet they used the average of La Hoya samples to emulate North Iberian Iron Age, but anyway, we know what that the other IA samples are, (and others IA samples have already NA and others inputs.)

    What you say is completelly true, we have not only IA samples with NA and others inputs, but many BA too.

    We have the problem we already know, we have not enough IA samples from all the Iberian peninsula, and in the IA.

    Although there was probably a common base, in the same way that there is still right now, there were variations between geographic areas and populations that cannot be shown with what we have right now.

    Even so, I consider all references to be very valid, knowing what they exactly are, and how to use them.

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    yeah, the best of all Spaniards

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    NOOOT AGAAAAIIIIIINNNN!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I didn't read the whole study, but they just labelled the source as "Iberian IA" in their models, they don't mean necessarily samples from La Hoya, which would be Iberia_North_IA in the original study. Olalde's had samples from multiple sites, the Berones were just the ones who had the highest amount of steppe-ancestry (edit: and those form Empuries), there were others that had significantly less, but had a lot more WHG ancestry. In fact Olalde's models had the medieval pre-muslim population (non-Basque) as 80% La Hoya and 20% Greek, so why are these models showing values as low as 50% autochthonous and nearly 50% Roman, despite those being very similar to modern non-Basque Iberians? What is the "Roman" component they are using, anyway? They don't tell you that either. Why do Basques, who have less steppe ancestry that non-Basque Spanish/Iberians, score twice as much "Iberia IA" than some of the others, yet there's no reference to compensate the difference? Why is North African virtually non-existant in most of the peninsula? This study's models seem to be lacking, they don't explore options all that well, and don't inform as much as they should.
    And yes, NA is not present in many other areas of the peninsula in modern populations, and at the same time, was already present in many samples before the arrival of ROmans to the peninsula, and not only in the Mediterranean coast or in Southern areas.

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