Uniqueness of the Basques

[gixajo]

NOOOT AGAAAAIIIIIINNNN!!!!!!!!!!

What?

[Ruderico]

I would bet they used the average of La Hoya samples to emulate North Iberian Iron Age, but anyway, we know what that the other IA samples are, (and others IA samples have already NA and others inputs.)

What you say is completelly true, we have not only IA samples with NA and others inputs, but many BA too.

We have the problem we already know, we have not enough IA samples from all the Iberian peninsula, and in the IA.

Although there was probably a common base, in the same way that there is still right now, there were variations between geographic areas and populations that cannot be shown with what we have right now.

Even so, I consider all references to be very valid, knowing what they exactly are, and how to use them.

Actually I'd bet they didn't use the La Hoya Celtiberians. While these were naturally closer to Basques than to other Iberians, they not only had more steppe-ancestry, but they plotted further away from the more uniquely-Basque individuals of today who have a greater overlap with ancient non-IE Iberians and even to Iberian BA populations. I circled the La Hoya samples in fuschia so they are easy to read.

[Gallop]

So they are representative of that "pure" Basque component, but not representative to use them as provincial references, and not only because the nowadays population is more mixed, but also because some provinces (or region as Nabarre)are not so "Basques" from a genetic point of view.

Edit: But we can understand that the purpose of the paper was not todetermine good provincial references, the paper ismade tolink the pure BAsque component with the areas which have more % of traditional Basque-speakers.

That is, about 10 people.

[gixajo]

Actually I'd bet they didn't use the La Hoya Celtiberians. While these were naturally closer to Basques than to other Iberians, they not only had more steppe-ancestry, but they plotted further away from the more uniquely-Basque individuals of today who have a greater overlap with ancient non-IE Iberians and even to Iberian BA populations. I circled the La Hoya samples in fuschia so they are easy to read.

G]

Maybe you are right, I didn´t see in the paper wich ancient references they used to their admixture models and neither where exactly did they get the modern individual samples, except for a brief "from Basque-speaking areas".

Which other different samples are just now avalaibles form Iberian IA with extra non-European considered inputs or Greek&Roman inputs?

[gixajo]

That is, about 10 people.

Every "Basque speaker" reference group is made with 11 individual samples, every "non Basque-speaker" labelled as Spanish peri-Basque has 10 individual samples.

190 individual samples in total, if I remember well.maybe I am wrong about the exact number of total samples, but near that.

Edit:i have not any problem with references per se, but with some conclusions and the general tone of the paper.

[Gallop]

It makes me laugh as foreigners surreptitiously and once again try to demean, belittle and belittle the immense and great history of Spain present the Basque factor of iron as if it had more merit not having participated in the general historical events of the rest of Spain. In fact, the Basques who have participated have been diluted with the rest during those events, those who have stayed at home have missed it.

It makes me laugh how foreigners surreptitiously and once again try to demean, belittle and belittle the immense and great history of Spain present the Basque factor of iron as if it had more merit not to have participated in the general historical events of the rest of Spain than to have participated. In fact, the Basques have participated and those who have participated have been diluted with the rest during those events, those who have stayed at home have missed out.

No country in Europe nor any region is a model of anything or the pattern of what should be. This is the world upside down. xd

[gixajo]

Actually I'd bet they didn't use the La Hoya Celtiberians. While these were naturally closer to Basques than to other Iberians, they not only had more steppe-ancestry, but they plotted further away from the more uniquely-Basque individuals of today who have a greater overlap with ancient non-IE Iberians and even to Iberian BA populations. I circled the La Hoya samples in fuschia so they are easy to read.

MG]

I see it now, the others Iberian IA samples are those labelled as Iberia East IA in G25, those from Catalonia and North Valencia, many of them from Roman period, and some of them with slighty extra inputs.

[gixajo]

It makes me laugh as foreigners surreptitiously and once again try to demean, belittle and belittle the immense and great history of Spain present the Basque factor of iron as if it had more merit not having participated in the general historical events of the rest of Spain. In fact, the Basques who have participated have been diluted with the rest during those events, those who have stayed at home have missed it.

It makes me laugh how foreigners surreptitiously and once again try to demean, belittle and belittle the immense and great history of Spain present the Basque factor of iron as if it had more merit not to have participated in the general historical events of the rest of Spain than to have participated. In fact, the Basques have participated and those who have participated have been diluted with the rest during those events, those who have stayed at home have missed out.

No country in Europe nor any region is a model of anything or the pattern of what should be. This is the world upside down. xd

Ya sabes que se vende muy bien en ciertos círculos extranjeros lo que los catalanes y vascos ofrecen sobre sí mismos para remarcar su diferencia (real o simulada).

[Ruderico]

I see it now, the others Iberian IA samples are those labelled as Iberia East IA in G25, those from Catalonia and North Valencia, many of them from Roman period, and some of them with slighty extra inputs.

Precisely, you can see some non-IE ancient IA/BA individuals would fit pretty well as modern Basques, but using them as a reference would clearly lower the autochthonous output for the rest of the peninsula, which is why Olalde got 80% and this yields less. The result is basically a consequence of sampling/input. However I'm sceptical those samples would fit the rest of the peninsula even back in the day, particularly areas whom we know had different histories and spoke languages of a different branch.
If they actually did fit, then we're clearly missing something with a lot more steppe ancestry that these models aren't showing because Basques, particularly those closer to BA/IA Iberia, have very low amounts of it when compared to the average Spanish, despite the Roman, etc, layers of ancestry that we have and they virtually don't. If this happened then we have an even bigger question on our hands, because it hasn't been explored at all.

Edit: I should add that the biggest question mark remains the "Roman" reference, it's incredibly vague
Edit2: If these are the Olalde samples from the Roman period, then they are essentially autochthonous with a somewhat small East Med influence (likely Roman from Italy) with a layer that is defined as Morocco_LN, which was basically a IBM+Iberian_Farmer population. In the end it wouldn't say much about actual Roman colonisation and its impact, and makes for a poor and potentially misleading reference

[Diego Garcia]

Ya sabes que se vende muy bien en ciertos círculos extranjeros lo que los catalanes y vascos ofrecen sobre sí mismos para remarcar su diferencia (real o simulada).

Resumiendo, un cuento chino / In short, a fairy tale.