Do Georgians have any actual Steppe ancestry?

**Leto** · 04-15-2021, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Roy

Where can I find the spreadsheet? Somehow googling does not help. Can you provide me some link?

Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia. The first three pops are Dargin subgroups from inland Dagestan

The Lezgins are missing here but they'd be a little more Southern than the Tabasarans.

**Zanzibar** · 12-26-2021, 06:05 PM

Western Georgians such as Adjara, Imereti, Laz and Mingrelian seem to almost to completely lack Steppe while Central and Eastern ones like Kakheti, Kartli and Meshkheti seem to have some. Khevsureti and Tusheti seem to have super high IE but they probably have a lot of North Caucasian admixture.

It's fascinating because I heard that Western Georgians are the "purest Georgians" and "whiter looking ones" while Eastern Georgians are more mixed and look more like Armenians, Azeris and Iranians. Very ironic indeed that more "Euro looking" Western Georgians are the ones that lack Steppe for the most part while the more MENA looking Eastern Georgians are the ones that have some IE blood.

Assuming that Erdogan is pure Laz, looks like he will don't have any Steppe blood.

Georgians especially the Western ones overall seem to be a genetic engima as they are one of the few West Asian groups to have close to zero to literally no Steppe while most of their neighbors have IE blood.

Target: Georgian_Ajar
Distance: 1.7645% / 0.01764461
47.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
27.2 GEO_CHG
10.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
8.0 TUR_Barcin_N
6.0 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Georgian_Imer
Distance: 1.6714% / 0.01671444
39.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
33.4 GEO_CHG
26.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.4 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Georgian_Jew
Distance: 1.9638% / 0.01963766
41.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.8 Levant_PPNB
13.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 Han

Target: Georgian_Kakh
Distance: 1.5207% / 0.01520704
51.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
17.0 GEO_CHG
10.2 Levant_PPNB
9.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.6 TUR_Barcin_N
1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Georgian_Kart
Distance: 1.4491% / 0.01449109
59.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
15.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
12.2 GEO_CHG
7.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 Levant_PPNB
0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Target: Georgian_Khevs
Distance: 1.5915% / 0.01591451
51.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
18.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.8 GEO_CHG
13.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
3.4 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Nganassan

Target: Georgian_Laz
Distance: 1.5312% / 0.01531169
52.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
21.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
4.6 Levant_PPNB
2.6 TUR_Barcin_N
0.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Georgian_Megr
Distance: 1.7752% / 0.01775199
40.8 GEO_CHG
29.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
29.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Target: Georgian_Meskheti
Distance: 2.3505% / 0.02350483
57.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
14.6 TUR_Barcin_N
13.6 Levant_PPNB
8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 Han

Target: Georgian_Svan
Distance: 2.2013% / 0.02201328
46.6 GEO_CHG
30.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
17.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 Nganassan

Target: Georgian_Tush
Distance: 1.6331% / 0.01633118
46.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
19.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 GEO_CHG
0.4 Jarawa

**Leto** · 12-26-2021, 06:32 PM

Some of those averages are Northeastern Georgians. I don't think they look Armenian. Rather North Caucasian.

Yes, it is ironic. Thanks to Orthodox Christianity they are less "black"

**Zanzibar** · 12-26-2021, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

Some of those averages are Northeastern Georgians. I don't think they look Armenian. Rather North Caucasian.

Yes, it is ironic. Thanks to Orthodox Christianity they are less "black"

Khevsureti and Tusheti are Northeastern I believe. Yep those would look North Caucasian. I think its the Kakheti, Kartli and Meshkheti which are the Central and Eastern regions who would look more Armenian, Azeri or Iranian.

Just have a hard time wrapping my head around such paradox. High CHG blood + low sunshine hours and lots of rainfall is probably responsible for many Western Georgians including Laz being "White/Euro" passing despite the fact that they are genetically more distant from Europeans than Turks, Iranians, Azeris and Armenians as the latter have some IE affinity.

Another group that is rather ironic are the Samaritans. They also tend to score noise level to literally zero Steppe but many of them are rather light skin with fairer features but its probably due to endogamy and them being rather inbred.

**Frowning Man** · 12-28-2021, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Joqool

Khevsureti and Tusheti are Northeastern I believe. Yep those would look North Caucasian. I think its the Kakheti, Kartli and Meshkheti which are the Central and Eastern regions who would look more Armenian, Azeri or Iranian.

Just have a hard time wrapping my head around such paradox. High CHG blood + low sunshine hours and lots of rainfall is probably responsible for many Western Georgians including Laz being "White/Euro" passing despite the fact that they are genetically more distant from Europeans than Turks, Iranians, Azeris and Armenians as the latter have some IE affinity.

Northeastern Georgians are anthropologically no more similar to North Caucasians than Western Georgians, they still look Georgian, not North Caucasian. But the western Georgians (except for the Svans) are lighter in color than the northeastern Georgians, I don’t know why. I am also a Western Georgian, I also don’t have steppe genes.
The western ones are more isolated due to their geography, the territory is more difficult to pass (very dense forests, swamps, rivers and mountains), the population is more closed, conservative and aggressive, even today western Georgia is very mono-ethnic.

Southeastern and generally southern Georgians more often than other Georgians are similar to Armenians and Iranians, but this does not mean that this type dominates among them. Even so, they will still differ from the Armenians and even more from the Iranians.

**Zoro** · 12-28-2021, 02:24 PM

Put all tests aside especially the quacky G25 and using simple logic ask yourself is it even remotely possible that Steppe admixture reached the furthest corners of Western Europe including Spain and more isolated islands like Sardinia and all places around Georgia including Georgia but didn’t reach some Georgians and a light bulb should turn on in your head.

Humans have managed to reach places a zillion times more isolated and inhospitable than Georgia such as islands in the Pacific ocean thousands of miles from continents including the Arctic circle and South America. Time to shelf pos calculators

**Leto** · 12-28-2021, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Zoro

Put all tests aside especially the quacky G25 and using simple logic ask yourself is it even remotely possible that Steppe admixture reached the furthest corners of Western Europe including Spain and more isolated islands like Sardinia and all places around Georgia including Georgia but didn’t reach some Georgians and a light bulb should turn on in your head.

Humans have managed to reach places a zillion times more isolated and inhospitable than Georgia such as islands in the Pacific ocean thousands of miles from continents including the Arctic circle and South America. Time to shelf pos calculators

Hey why won't you fucking show us an alternative model as evidence to disprove the OP instead of baselessly bashing the fuck out of G25 at every opportunity over and over again.
I personally find it strange too that Georgians show barely any Steppe given their looks and geography. Hell, they even have R1a. Svans are around 10% R1a, I believe.

**Zoro** · 12-28-2021, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

I personally find it strange too that Georgians show barely any Steppe given their looks and geography. Hell, they even have R1a. Svans are around 10% R1a, I believe.

Why would 10% R1a be surprising when Georgia is at the footsteps of the Steppe

Hey why won't you fucking show us an alternative model as evidence to disprove the OP instead of baselessly bashing the fuck out of G25 at every opportunity over and over again.

Why would I run models when you’re being a prick. Logic is a good enough thing to disprove G25

**FinalFlash** · 12-28-2021, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Zoro

Why would 10% R1a be surprising when Georgia is at the footsteps of the Steppe

Why would I run models when you’re being a prick. Logic is a good enough thing to disprove G25

Because running models would alleviate all doubts as far the validity of your rants and would put a massive dent on the integrity of G25, if not completely nullify it as a proper genetics tool.

**FinalFlash** · 12-28-2021, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Joqool

Western Georgians such as Adjara, Imereti, Laz and Mingrelian seem to almost to completely lack Steppe while Central and Eastern ones like Kakheti, Kartli and Meshkheti seem to have some. Khevsureti and Tusheti seem to have super high IE but they probably have a lot of North Caucasian admixture.

It's fascinating because I heard that Western Georgians are the "purest Georgians" and "whiter looking ones" while Eastern Georgians are more mixed and look more like Armenians, Azeris and Iranians. Very ironic indeed that more "Euro looking" Western Georgians are the ones that lack Steppe for the most part while the more MENA looking Eastern Georgians are the ones that have some IE blood.

Assuming that Erdogan is pure Laz, looks like he will don't have any Steppe blood.

Georgians especially the Western ones overall seem to be a genetic engima as they are one of the few West Asian groups to have close to zero to literally no Steppe while most of their neighbors have IE blood.

Target: Georgian_Ajar
Distance: 1.7645% / 0.01764461
47.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
27.2 GEO_CHG
10.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
8.0 TUR_Barcin_N
6.0 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Georgian_Imer
Distance: 1.6714% / 0.01671444
39.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
33.4 GEO_CHG
26.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.4 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Georgian_Jew
Distance: 1.9638% / 0.01963766
41.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.8 Levant_PPNB
13.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 Han

Target: Georgian_Kakh
Distance: 1.5207% / 0.01520704
51.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
17.0 GEO_CHG
10.2 Levant_PPNB
9.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.6 TUR_Barcin_N
1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Georgian_Kart
Distance: 1.4491% / 0.01449109
59.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
15.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
12.2 GEO_CHG
7.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 Levant_PPNB
0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Target: Georgian_Khevs
Distance: 1.5915% / 0.01591451
51.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
18.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.8 GEO_CHG
13.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
3.4 Levant_PPNB
0.4 Nganassan

Target: Georgian_Laz
Distance: 1.5312% / 0.01531169
52.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
21.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
4.6 Levant_PPNB
2.6 TUR_Barcin_N
0.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Georgian_Megr
Distance: 1.7752% / 0.01775199
40.8 GEO_CHG
29.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
29.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Target: Georgian_Meskheti
Distance: 2.3505% / 0.02350483
57.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
14.6 TUR_Barcin_N
13.6 Levant_PPNB
8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 Han

Target: Georgian_Svan
Distance: 2.2013% / 0.02201328
46.6 GEO_CHG
30.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
17.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 Nganassan

Target: Georgian_Tush
Distance: 1.6331% / 0.01633118
46.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
19.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 GEO_CHG
0.4 Jarawa

Its not always about what you have but rather what you don't. The "whiter" looking westerners have trace to non-existent levels of Iran_N relative to their Eastern counterparts...who in turn have less than Armenians....who have less than Iranians and Azeris etc.