Ethnic groups that are lighter/darker than their ancestry would suggest

[gixajo]

I also thought about it, that Ashkenazi Jews can be just mix of Northern Europeans and Levantines, but if we go by Gedmatch calculators their North Atlantic score is the same as Italian, Sephardic and North African Jews have. Baltic score is only higher, which represents Slavic admixture. They are modelled as 90% Italian Jewish + 10% Eastern European on all these calculators. Approximately 55% from Levantines, 35% from ancient Romans and 10% from Slavs

Are you actually jew or just you have some Jewish ancestry?

We can do a test with you if you have G25.

I make two artificial references Askenazim with 50% Levantine (Palestinian_Beit_Sahour) and half Polish and another similar with Levantine and the Russian average, and we tested two models with two Askenazim groups from the datasheet and those two artificial ones, and the polissh and Russian references, to see how you score.

[gixajo]

Well, I can do the same with K13 if you don´t have G25.

[Abriekman]

But Gedmatch is an Admixtool to modellate people basing that modelling in few components, based in a SNPs lecture,(reading?) but not directly a SNPs assigned to ethnicities lecture(reading?).

So Admixture tools don´t give a real result, but several different ways in which a individual is modelled through some coordinates.

Do Ashkenazim score 40-50% Italian in ethnic estimates from commercial companies that give estimates throug directly assigned SNPs or "chunks" of similar SNPs concatenated too?

Yes and they can not be modelled that way. G25 is other thing. On Gedmatch if you delete Southern European for Ashkenazi modelling and choose only Levantines and Northern European distance will be huge, just because they can not be modelled with such populations, because of low NA percentage. If they would have admixture from French or Germans we would see exaggerated Atlantic %, just like Baltic. Gedmatch is more reliable in this case because on G25 50% Southern European + 50% Levantine would be similar to 30% Northern European + 70% Levantine because they use coordinates but on Gedmatch there would be completely different results because of different component scores

Yes, on tests where Ashkenazi category does not exist Ashkenazic Jews usually get approximately half Levantine half Italian, on DNAGenics for example

[gixajo]

Yes and they can not be modelled that way. G25 is other thing. On Gedmatch if you delete Southern European for Ashkenazi modelling and choose only Levantines and Northern European distance will be huge, just because they can not be modelled with such populations, because of low NA percentage. If they would have admixture from French or Germans we would see exaggerated Atlantic %, just like Baltic. Gedmatch is more reliable in this case because on G25 50% Southern European + 50% Levantine would be similar to 30% Northern European + 70% Levantine because they use coordinates but on Gedmatch there would be completely different results because of different component scores

Yes, on tests where Ashkenazi category does not exist Ashkenazic Jews usually get approximately half Levantine half Italian, on DNAGenics for example

I have seen that distances are higher if you try to model Ashkenazim just with Germans&Slavs and Levantines without Italians, although close enough to be inisde the distances considered acceptable (less than 3).

But if you want to do the test, I make the means...

[Abriekman]

I have seen that distances are higher if you try to model Ashkenazim just with Germans&Slavs and Levantines without Italians, although close enough to be inisde the distances considered acceptable (less than 3).

But if you want to do the test, I make the means...

On Global25 yes, we can see good distances, because we use coordinates instead of admixture proportions.

This is what we get using ancient Levantine, Mesopotamian, Iron Age Roman and Eastern European samples

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.5308% / 0.01530770
53.8 Middle_Eastern
29.8 Italian_Iron_Age
16.4 Eastern_European

Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_Beirut_ERoman,0.0859368,0.1406508,-0.0576052,-0.0909245,-0.0153875,-0.0312358,-0.0051112,-0.005596,0.007465,0.010524,0.0064958,-0.0090293,0.0178392,-0.0026492,-0.0099752,0.0170377,0.0113435,-0.0044975,0.0018855,0.0016572,0.0022772,0.0048845,-0.0008625,0.0039462,-0.0029638
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic,0.064879,0.147252,-0.060339,-0.0809115,-0.0063085,-0.029144,-0.0024675,-0.013615,0.0018405,0.0059225,0.005115,-0.0006745,0.0079535,0.0033715,-0.012283,-0.002718,-0.00665,0.0012035,0.009867,-0.012944,0.0034315,0.004637,-0.0057925,-0.002109,-0.005688
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547,0.080814,0.151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550,0.084229,0.140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Sardinia_IA,0.1155305,0.157915,0.0203645,-0.04845,0.0432385,-0.021893,-0.0055225,0.001269,0.0291445,0.0507525,0.0013805,0.012214,-0.019326,-0.012455,-0.006786,0.0053035,0.013234,-0.0010135,0.008673,-0.006628,-0.00443,0.0066155,-0.0071485,-0.00735,-0.000479
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.01079,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Eastern_European:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.8665% / 0.01866488
60.0 Middle_Eastern
40.0 German

Also good distance, if we use coordinates on G25.


When we use Eurogenes K13 for example

Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 2.0481% / 2.04805095
62.4 Italian_Jewish
18.0 Algerian_Jewish
13.3 Lithuanian
6.3 Kurdish_Jewish

They are really close to other Jewish populations by admixture proportions with additional Baltic % from Eastern Europeans.

Without Jewish populations ( I am also using Germans and French in source )

Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 2.7737% / 2.77371624
51.7 Lebanese_Druze
14.5 Italian_Sardinia
13.5 Italian_Trentino
11.9 Lithuanian
8.4 Algerian



Now with Northwestern Europeans and Levantines only


Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 5.3393% / 5.33926927
25.1 Lebanese_Druze
23.4 French
22.1 Samaritan
10.7 Lebanese_Christian
10.1 Polish
8.6 Mozabite_Berber

Based on Ashkenazi component scores I think it is impossible for them to have any Western European admixture

[Davystayn]

They're much darker-haired than Scandinavians and also darker-haired than most Dutch and Germans (except Bavarians).

What has happened to you these days Tooting,
amongst all your interesting threads you used to come up with the odd comment like this, can see why people used to say you were Bloody. There is tons of data on eye colour and you know this yet you come with these one line anecdotes, thought you were better than that

[Tooting Carmen]

What has happened to you these days Tooting,
amongst all your interesting threads you used to come up with the odd comment like this, can see why people used to say you were Bloody. There is tons of data on eye colour and you know this yet you come with these one line anecdotes, thought you were better than that

LOL I could not stand Bloody. But I do think Brits are less blonde than other Europeans of a similar latitude, even if only by a few percentage points (in the case of Dutch and Germans).

[Megadorian]

Spaniards are much darker than they are perceived to be.

[Avicenna]

LIGHTER
Nuristani people are noticeably lighter than their neighbors despite being part of the same iranic ethnic group

Nah that's a myth man. Nuristanis are roughly the same( probably lighter ), the difference is exaggerated but regarding their provincial neighbours like panjsher , laghman, badakshan , Kunar , nangarhar , it's not that much .

Random afghans










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[Avicenna]

LOL I could not stand Bloody, But I do think Brits are less blonde than other Europeans of a similar latitude, even if only by a few percentage points (in the case of Dutch and Germans).

Depends which region in Britain. One thing we can agree on is that they are certainly lighter skinned than the Germans and Scandos .