Who is more Germanic between Swiss Germans and Scots?

[Grace O'Malley]

Closest populations to samples above.

Distance to: Pictish_Average:
0.01675878 Scottish
0.01686714 Irish
0.01725324 Orcadian
0.01756969 English_Cornwall
0.01816800 English
0.02046541 Welsh
0.02297306 French_Brittany
0.02327895 Dutch
0.02448866 Shetlandic
0.02487680 Icelandic
0.02609467 Danish
0.02930239 Norwegian
0.02971826 Afrikaner
0.03430205 Belgian
0.03481065 German
0.03630356 Swedish
0.03844959 French_Nord
0.04006916 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04089126 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04108673 French_Paris
0.04290134 French_Alsace
0.04370003 Swiss_German
0.04766450 German_East

Distance to: Gallic_Average:
0.02628313 French_Nord
0.02834945 French_Alsace
0.02846252 Belgian
0.02882644 German
0.02967646 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03014923 Swiss_German
0.03015155 French_Brittany
0.03126778 Welsh
0.03233967 French_Paris
0.03276262 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03276712 Austrian
0.03278158 Afrikaner
0.03308920 English_Cornwall
0.03420075 French_Occitanie
0.03435089 English
0.03543402 Orcadian
0.03662842 Scottish
0.03749768 French_Auvergne
0.03786133 Dutch
0.03791114 German_East
0.04007866 Irish
0.04086922 Danish
0.04140918 Swiss_French

Distance to: Swedish_Viking_Average:
0.01327508 Swedish
0.02184163 Icelandic
0.02202128 Danish
0.02507061 Norwegian
0.02957236 Dutch
0.03227039 Orcadian
0.03316576 Shetlandic
0.03325345 Scottish
0.03500359 Irish
0.03629112 English
0.03695517 Welsh
0.03711663 German_East
0.03763249 Czech
0.03853686 English_Cornwall
0.03855948 German
0.04294486 Afrikaner
0.04399378 French_Brittany
0.04585435 Polish
0.04627432 Slovakian
0.04969385 Hungarian
0.04984888 Austrian
0.05217016 Finnish
0.05228469 Sorb_Niederlausitz

Distance to: Norwegian_Viking_Average:
0.01616578 Norwegian
0.01789906 Swedish
0.01795297 Danish
0.01830202 Icelandic
0.02209801 Dutch
0.02525553 Scottish
0.02561654 Irish
0.02573067 Shetlandic
0.02576587 Orcadian
0.02857010 Welsh
0.02858192 English
0.03119086 English_Cornwall
0.03463866 German
0.03503963 French_Brittany
0.03521030 Afrikaner
0.04248219 German_East
0.04301307 Czech
0.04626131 Belgian
0.04735789 Austrian
0.04750271 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04974108 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05027166 Slovakian
0.05033294 French_Nord

Distance to: Danish_Viking_Average:
0.00974923 Danish
0.01206145 Dutch
0.01509326 Scottish
0.01552148 Welsh
0.01606647 Orcadian
0.01621657 English
0.01632870 Norwegian
0.01642226 Icelandic
0.01804361 English_Cornwall
0.01830772 Irish
0.01888288 Shetlandic
0.01930839 Swedish
0.02077498 German
0.02114318 French_Brittany
0.02425168 Afrikaner
0.03175062 Belgian
0.03339165 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03388455 German_East
0.03504431 French_Nord
0.03559237 Austrian
0.03709627 Czech
0.03732455 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03811505 French_Alsace

[gixajo]

Thanks. I am aware of this and should try using it more frequently to understand how it works.

Someone on Anthrogenica posted this ancient model. It was still on there from when I last used it.

Probably is a mean between several cherrypicked individual samples of "VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA". (Or the mean is not well done)

Those three, are related or have been use to made the mean:

VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK201,0.126344,0.138112,0.056945,0.044897,0.041854,0.013945,0.00188,0.003692,0.003272,-0.000182,-0.011692,0.005845,-0.02111,-0.014726,0.027687,-0.005569,-0.024251,-0.000887,0.00088,0.004502,0.007612,0.002349,-0.011092,0.018557,0.002395
VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK203,0.124067,0.138112,0.062979,0.052972,0.033852,0.025937,0.001175,0.00923,0.001023,0.002916,-0.011205,0.007793,-0.014123,-0.014863,0.026058,-0.004641,-0.022948,0.002534,0.003771,0.01038,-0.002371,0.005688,-0.003944,0.01446,-0.000479
VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK207,0.12862,0.135065,0.058077,0.04522,0.034776,0.013945,0.000235,0.003,0.00634,0.003645,-0.004547,0.008243,-0.016947,-0.013074,0.031623,-0.006629,-0.017211,0,0.005908,-0.002126,0.000624,0.009645,-0.00986,0.023738,0.002155

To see a possible Germanic in my father autosomal results, in order to see if our Ydna is modern or ancient, I have made this one, emulating what Token said, that is basically same that Ruderico made in AG a year ago, and with whom I collaborated monts ago,to make a new NW_Iberia_IA proxy there (I changed Ruderico´s NorthWest_Iberia_IA artificial proxy by the North_Iberia_IA original reference):

DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224

(Anyway, there are better references than DEU_MA average, that average is made with many individual samples, and the average could be improved IMO selecting best ones among those.)

And he shows 0% DEU_MA, what points basically(IMO) the same as I could have seen in many calculators and models tried to see it, that that Ydna should have entered in the Iberian peninsula before the 1780s.

[Roy]

This is what I get with those models.

First model.


Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 0.0216% / 0.02163678
54.9 Scotland_LBA
33.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
8.6 DEU_MA
3.3 Switzerland_IA

With just DEU and Scotland_LBA


Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 0.0232% / 0.02315752
81.0 Scotland_LBA
19.0 DEU_MA

With the ISL_Viking


Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 0.0218% / 0.02179288
56.8 Scotland_LBA
32.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
10.3 DEU_MA
0.7 ITA_Rome_Imperial

With DEU removed.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 0.0219% / 0.02191259
63.4 Scotland_LBA
35.3 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
1.3 ITA_Rome_Imperial

So why do I get such a high amount of Germanic? I'm not sure whether this will ever be solved unless there are more studies. I think different areas even in places like Ireland are not all uniform.

IIRC you are among the most Norwegian-leaning Irish people around. Could it be that your ancestry comes from some pockets in Ireland that preserved better Norse ancestry? Or mostly practiced some relative endogamy within their communities? Or a number of alleles randomly popping out in you due to a thing called recombination.

[Peterski]

Probably is a mean between several cherrypicked individual samples of "VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA". (Or the mean is not well done)

Those three, are related or have been use to made the mean:

VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK201,0.126344,0.138112,0.056945,0.044897,0.041854,0.013945,0.00188,0.003692,0.003272,-0.000182,-0.011692,0.005845,-0.02111,-0.014726,0.027687,-0.005569,-0.024251,-0.000887,0.00088,0.004502,0.007612,0.002349,-0.011092,0.018557,0.002395
VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK203,0.124067,0.138112,0.062979,0.052972,0.033852,0.025937,0.001175,0.00923,0.001023,0.002916,-0.011205,0.007793,-0.014123,-0.014863,0.026058,-0.004641,-0.022948,0.002534,0.003771,0.01038,-0.002371,0.005688,-0.003944,0.01446,-0.000479
VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK207,0.12862,0.135065,0.058077,0.04522,0.034776,0.013945,0.000235,0.003,0.00634,0.003645,-0.004547,0.008243,-0.016947,-0.013074,0.031623,-0.006629,-0.017211,0,0.005908,-0.002126,0.000624,0.009645,-0.00986,0.023738,0.002155

VK201 and VK203 are older than the rest. These two samples are from years 130-668 AD, older than the Viking Age.

VK207 and the remaining samples (VK202, VK204 and VK205) are younger - these are from the 900s (10th century).

[Grace O'Malley]

IIRC you are among the most Norwegian-leaning Irish people around. Could it be that your ancestry comes from some pockets in Ireland that preserved better Norse ancestry? Or mostly practiced some relative endogamy within their communities? Or a number of alleles randomly popping out in you due to a thing called recombination.

I don't really think so. My parents are from two different parts of Ireland although not really distant from each other as Ireland is a small country. Creoda's father is also Scandinavian shifted on these calculators. I think there should be more studies done as there could be some some differences within Ireland. The only thing I've read about this was a study by American biological anthropologist John Relethford in the 90s when he did a study on Ireland.

Abstract
Genetic variation among human populations can reflect a combination of contemporary patterns of gene flow and genetic drift as well as long-term population relationships due to population history. We examine the likely impact of past history and contemporary structure on the patterns of anthropometric variation among 31 counties in Ireland (made up of the two nations of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland). Data for 17 anthropometric measures and parent-offspring migration on 7,214 adult Irish males were taken from the large data set originally collected by Dupertuis and Dawson in the mid-1930s (Hooton et al., 1955). Patterns of genetic similarity among 31 counties were assessed using R matrix methods that allow estimation of minimum genetic distances. These distances were compared to distances reflecting history, geography, and migration using matrix permutation methods. The results indicate that among-group variation in Ireland reflects past population history to a much greater extent than contemporary patterns of migration and population size. The midland counties are distinct from other populations, and their history suggests greater genetic input from early Viking invasions. A second major pattern in biological variation is a longitudinal gradient separating western and eastern counties. This gradient appears related to patterns of early settlement and/or a concentration in the east of later immigrants, particularly from England. Comparison of regional means with published data for several other European nations confirms these hypotheses.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7726293/

Both blood-group and anthropometric analyses suggest that genetic
distinctiveness of several midland populations. For the blood-group analysis, the
counties of Longford (13) and Roscommon (8) are separate from nearby
populations. For the anthropometric analysis, the county subgroup of LongfordWestmeath (11) is quite distinct. Hooton and Dupertuis (1955) noted the distinct
nature of this subgroup and suggested two explanations: (1) age-related variation in
that this subgroup was on average the youngest, and (2) effects of early Viking
inhabitation in the area. In their original analysis, Hooton and Dupertuis noted that
the young average age of men in Longford-Westmeath could account for some of
the group's distinctiveness. In the present study, however, this separation remains
even after variables most affected by age are removed. The hypothesis of Viking
contact has historical validity. Early Norse invasions of Ireland began in the late
ninth century, and the major settlements sprang up in the coastal ports of Wexford,
Waterford, Dublin, Cork and Limerick. The only significant inland occupation of
the Vikings seems to have occurred around Lough Ree, a lake bordering Longford,
Roscommon and Westmeath. This settlement seems to have resulted from expansion
of the Limerick Norse up the Shannon River (Hooton and Dupertuis 1955, Jones
1968, Orme 1970). In fact, the Gaelic term 'longphort' (the Gaelic equivalent of
Longford) means a Norse fortification (Orme 1970). The relationship of history to
naming of the county is not known, however. That other Norse settlements do not
show any distinction in blood-group or anthropometric analyses may be due to the
fact that these were coastal ports, and as such experienced greater immigration in
later times. That is, Norse colonization is a slight factor relative to later historical
events. The Norse may have had a greater genetic effect in the midlands.

https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ese502/l...up_paper_2.pdf

Both my father and Creoda's father are from these midland counties. My mother is actually from close to Limerick. Possibly some studies from people like Lara Cassidy in the future might hopefully look at these things in more detail. I just think there is a lot we don't know.

[Anglo-Celtic]

IIRC you are among the most Norwegian-leaning Irish people around. Could it be that your ancestry comes from some pockets in Ireland that preserved better Norse ancestry? Or mostly practiced some relative endogamy within their communities? Or a number of alleles randomly popping out in you due to a thing called recombination.

I always thought that when I saw her stats. Grace likely has more Norse blood than she knows.

[Grace O'Malley]

I always thought that when I saw her stats. Grace likely has more Norse blood than she knows.

I try to keep an open mind on genetics. There are a few studies that discuss this Scandinavian similarity or input but Bronze Age populations were very Northern genetically. Ireland did have Vikings, Normans etc so it would be really interesting to know what sort of impact they had on the Irish population. I think the only way to gauge this sort of thing is with ancient genomes. They need to have pre-Viking genomes from Ireland. Apparently Prof Dan Bradley's lab do have genomes from all periods of Ireland's history. That is the lab where Dr Lara Cassidy is from also. I would really like to see some bona fide Celtic genomes from Europe. Personally from what I've seen Ireland and Britain don't have a great Celtic impact judging from the Celtic genomes that are available now. This might change though if there are a great range of Celtic genomes out there. There really is still a lot of unknowns and it is especially difficult when looking at quite similar populations genetically.

[Anglo-Celtic]

I try to keep an open mind on genetics. There are a few studies that discuss this Scandinavian similarity or input but Bronze Age populations were very Northern genetically. Ireland did have Vikings, Normans etc so it would be really interesting to know what sort of impact they had on the Irish population. I think the only way to gauge this sort of thing is with ancient genomes. They need to have pre-Viking genomes from Ireland. Apparently Prof Dan Bradley's lab do have genomes from all periods of Ireland's history. That is the lab where Dr Lara Cassidy is from also. I would really like to see some bona fide Celtic genomes from Europe. Personally from what I've seen Ireland and Britain don't have a great Celtic impact judging from the Celtic genomes that are available now. This might change though if there are a great range of Celtic genomes out there. There really is still a lot of unknowns and it is especially difficult when looking at quite similar populations genetically.

You find all kinds of genetic surprises. I have an ancestor from Somerset. He came here in the 1600s or so. His paternal DNA matched men from Ireland. I also have a mysterious Sloan forebear. Her dad's DNA goes back to Cork, and it disappeared from Ireland. It's unique to my country now! There were other bizarre and mysterious circumstances linked to this line.

Maybe one or more of your lines experienced this kind of anomaly. Say that a Norseman moved from a town to the country. He married a Native Irish woman. His genes were passed down the lines, although they were atypical. A Norse family could have lived in the same areas as Irishmen too, and I'm not referring to the established known port towns with which we're all familiar. As for Celts, they bring the colonial Spanish to mind. The Spanish gave culture and language to Native Americans in many parts of the New World, but their ethnic makeup differed. Maybe Isles natives had a variation of that relationship with the continental Celts, although the races were the same.

[Roy]

I don't really think so. My parents are from two different parts of Ireland although not really distant from each other as Ireland is a small country. Creoda's father is also Scandinavian shifted on these calculators. I think there should be more studies done as there could be some some differences within Ireland. The only thing I've read about this was a study by American biological anthropologist John Relethford in the 90s when he did a study on Ireland.

Abstract
Genetic variation among human populations can reflect a combination of contemporary patterns of gene flow and genetic drift as well as long-term population relationships due to population history. We examine the likely impact of past history and contemporary structure on the patterns of anthropometric variation among 31 counties in Ireland (made up of the two nations of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland). Data for 17 anthropometric measures and parent-offspring migration on 7,214 adult Irish males were taken from the large data set originally collected by Dupertuis and Dawson in the mid-1930s (Hooton et al., 1955). Patterns of genetic similarity among 31 counties were assessed using R matrix methods that allow estimation of minimum genetic distances. These distances were compared to distances reflecting history, geography, and migration using matrix permutation methods. The results indicate that among-group variation in Ireland reflects past population history to a much greater extent than contemporary patterns of migration and population size. The midland counties are distinct from other populations, and their history suggests greater genetic input from early Viking invasions. A second major pattern in biological variation is a longitudinal gradient separating western and eastern counties. This gradient appears related to patterns of early settlement and/or a concentration in the east of later immigrants, particularly from England. Comparison of regional means with published data for several other European nations confirms these hypotheses.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7726293/



https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ese502/l...up_paper_2.pdf

Both my father and Creoda's father are from these midland counties. My mother is actually from close to Limerick. Possibly some studies from people like Lara Cassidy in the future might hopefully look at these things in more detail. I just think there is a lot we don't know.

Interesting that is midland Irish folk that is more likely to score like that. Now it made me wonder how many Norse people have settled in Ireland in the Middle Ages?

[Roy]

I don't really think so. My parents are from two different parts of Ireland although not really distant from each other as Ireland is a small country. Creoda's father is also Scandinavian shifted on these calculators. I think there should be more studies done as there could be some some differences within Ireland. The only thing I've read about this was a study by American biological anthropologist John Relethford in the 90s when he did a study on Ireland.

Abstract
Genetic variation among human populations can reflect a combination of contemporary patterns of gene flow and genetic drift as well as long-term population relationships due to population history. We examine the likely impact of past history and contemporary structure on the patterns of anthropometric variation among 31 counties in Ireland (made up of the two nations of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland). Data for 17 anthropometric measures and parent-offspring migration on 7,214 adult Irish males were taken from the large data set originally collected by Dupertuis and Dawson in the mid-1930s (Hooton et al., 1955). Patterns of genetic similarity among 31 counties were assessed using R matrix methods that allow estimation of minimum genetic distances. These distances were compared to distances reflecting history, geography, and migration using matrix permutation methods. The results indicate that among-group variation in Ireland reflects past population history to a much greater extent than contemporary patterns of migration and population size. The midland counties are distinct from other populations, and their history suggests greater genetic input from early Viking invasions. A second major pattern in biological variation is a longitudinal gradient separating western and eastern counties. This gradient appears related to patterns of early settlement and/or a concentration in the east of later immigrants, particularly from England. Comparison of regional means with published data for several other European nations confirms these hypotheses.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7726293/



https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ese502/l...up_paper_2.pdf

Both my father and Creoda's father are from these midland counties. My mother is actually from close to Limerick. Possibly some studies from people like Lara Cassidy in the future might hopefully look at these things in more detail. I just think there is a lot we don't know.

Interesting that is midland Irish folk that is more likely to score like that. Now it made me wonder how many Norse people have settled in Ireland in the Middle Ages?