King of the Gypsies

[Universe]

....

Ok, so, 1. what is your history 2. on what do you base your view?

1) I’m a Hungarian person, there’s no need to overcomplicate things.
2) By “basing my views on history” I meant historically people didn’t define ethnicity based on patrilineal line.

So, can anybody be anyone, when he wants, and it doesn't matter?

Nope.

You see, you did it again. You narrowed the problem to Y-DNA. But the issue wans't about Y-DNA, and that noone cares about Y IRL - of course not, but it was not the problem. You are flatting things to not important details, and then pronounced victory as the thing is not important - seemingly yes, but by the point - not, becasue you lost him.

Btw, IRL people do not care about 99,99% of things in the world, but it doesn't mean, they do not exist or they cannot be disscussed.

I replied to the Y-dna part because I disagreed with it. I didn’t reply to other parts because there wasn’t anything to contest.

And again, in your wish to be right, you're adding some different aspect not wanting to understand what I actually said.
My point wasn't they are majority or minority. So, what is the point in debating with you, when you even in such very
simple and tiny aspects are refusing anything what is said. There is no sense. You are behaving like a child, who has
to say final no, no, no, no, no matter what was said.

If I disagree with you, then I disagree with you because I disagree with you, not for other reason.

Also not relevant to what was said.

It is relevant because your always say patrilineal line = ethnicity and identity. It’s one of your main shticks on TA, this thread included. According to Rethelism those Hungarians don’t identify as Hungarian, but in reality they do. That’s also the reason you are saying Mortimer isn’t a gypsy. To me it seems your theory doesn’t work.

Yes, is seen, and what?

They don’t subscribe to Rethelian views on patrilineal descent, that’s the point.

Even if he was, he wasn't?

The two sentences do not contradict each other. First one is a declarative, the second one is conditional "what if" statement.

It seems it is another mantra which you are going to repeat on, and on, and on.

If it’s true, why is it a problem if I repeat it? Another reason to repeat is that you deny it. You have your own mantras that you repeat, so what?

Very often you give the impression, that you are talking about yourself.

That’s a false impression then.

Yes, relevant according to personal thread's theme, BUT you said general thing, and she also said general thing.
The fact, what are her feelings about him is irrelevant.

Someone can say: "being a Sarmatian is patrilinear, but I do not like Joe from Haiti".
It doesn't change the fact, that Joe is a noble. He is, regardless the fact he is black, and that this someone doesn't like him.

O gosh, you really like to focus on not relevant details instead on things which are discussed or relevant to the topic.
Nothing strage, that you can't get anything what is explaind to you and discussions with you have to become long and unreadable.

She still called Mortimer a dirty gypsy, not a dirty serb, so I think she considers Mortimer a gypsy not serb. I doubt she subscribes to Rethelian views on patrilineal descent based on what I’ve seen from her. I remember –unlike you- she argued Melania Trump wasn’t an ethnic German. She disagreed with you in that thread so it looks like she doesn't subscribe to Rethelism.

Still don't get it?
There are many ways of defining the political and non political identity, but the inheritable identity is above everything else, final, and not irreversible.

That’s citizenship though, not ethnicity.

but at the end and always I will have a different provenance than some other people here — natural, tribal one, which is not depending on any current law, any language which I speak or any place where I live, which always will be a part of my history and history – the origin – of my family, and there is just nothing in the world what will change it

If you aren’t ethnically Polish, then you aren’t ethnically polish, it’s that simple. Your entire world view doesn’t have to be centered around your individual case. For some people patrilineal line coincides with ethnicity, for others nope.

You also not. And nobody in the world. You are refusing everything what contradicts your wish of sustaining your current situation, and by this, you want the whole world, the whole history and people, to function according to your wish, to legit your claim.

Nope, I don’t want to change anything. I think it is you who want change things.

But you will never change the fact, that you are slovak Cromak, currently living in Hungary and speaking hungarian, admitted by hungarian law as a Hungarian. Noobody want's to take from you this last current part, but this also does not nagate the first one - as you would wish.

I’m not Slovak by your standards, because my Slovak ancestry isn’t patrilineal. I don’t know what Cromak means. I’m not Hungarian only by citizenship like a Gypsy or a Black living in Hungary.
But who knows, if we go back far enough in my family tree then my paternal line is also Slovak, I don't know about that and it doesn't matter.

Ok, so tell me, what is the sense, if Poles in Poland, claim to be Germans, and Germans
in Poland claim to be Poles, in addition wanting to be more real than the the real ones?
Wouldn't be senseable, if Poles would remain Poles, and Germans Germans?

If they identify as Poles and other Poles accept them as Poles, then they’re Poles regardless of their origin.

If all Slovkas would claim to be Hungarians, and all Hungarians would claim to be Romanians,
and Romanians would claim to be Slovaks

but they don’t claim that because they don’t feel that way. Nor would society accept them.

In his case, finally, he is a Hamite, so it doesn't have to bother him too much, if he dislikes serbness.
Maybe for you this is a total abstraction, but it is as it is.

Hamites aren’t a thing, at least not in the way you use that word.

I think that many Gypsies have a european ydna. Yes 40-60% have H1 a gypsy/southasian/ ydna but there are 40% who dont. Even if their european or westeuroasian ancestry is more distant they still must have a european or westasian ancestor 1000 or 600 years ago. Gypsies are all mixed, every gypsy is mixed. I fit with my biology with the gypsies easy. There are many Gypsies who are E-V13. I read that in voivodina where Im from majority are E-V13.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajpa.21372

I meant your patrilineal line is Serb, Rethel obviously meant that too. You could’ve figured him out after discussing the same thing in multiple threads.

[Rethel]

1) I’m a Hungarian person, there’s no need to overcomplicate things.

You said, you are not rootless. If it is your proof, that mean you are.

By “basing my views on history” I meant historically people didn’t define ethnicity based on patrilineal line.

Ok, now, after so many disscussions, it has to be said, that you are willingly ignorant.
You are only a one step of being a liar.

Nope.

If you can, everybody can.

It is relevant because your always say patrilineal line = ethnicity and identity.

Not in the meaning which you want it.

That’s also the reason you are saying Mortimer isn’t a gypsy.

HE KNOWS HE ISN'T A GYPSY - in this case his Y has nothing to od with it. He didn't have to make any efferot because he knows it since he was born. He didn;t have to make y-test to know it, he didn't have to make genealogical research. He knew this since ever.

To me it seems your theory doesn’t work.

To me it seems, everything has to fit to your disire.

The two sentences do not contradict each other. First one is a declarative, the second one is conditional "what if" statement.

Yes they do.
It is not known for sure, what was his origin, but at least it seems (also from this what you say) that according to his knowledge he was Slovak. And as such, he was promoting the most stupid policy ever, the more anti-hungarian, than any Habsburg or Lothringen germanization policy. Being of foreign provenance and saying "we have to destroy others, and make them us, becasue we vanished" is so moronic, that I cannot even absorb such stupidity. Unfortunatly, many TA-hungarians follow such cuck way of thinking, and then you (pl) are upset, when someone will say: the king is naked. He is, not our fault.

If it’s true, why is it a problem if I repeat it? Another reason to repeat is that you deny it. You have your own mantras that you repeat, so what?

The problem is, that you do not want to know things. Repeating slogans, the same on every occasion, is not helpfull.
The fact, that some people cannot admit the truth, love lies, doesn't mean, that they have to be some authorities. You follow their steps, so nothing strange.

That’s a false impression then.

With every post, it is more obvious, that it isn't false.

She still called Mortimer a dirty gypsy, not a dirty serb, so I think she considers Mortimer a gypsy not serb. I doubt she subscribes to Rethelian views on patrilineal descent based on what I’ve seen from her. I remember –unlike you- she argued Melania Trump wasn’t an ethnic German. She disagreed with you in that thread so it looks like she doesn't subscribe to Rethelism.

I am not going to discuss, what she thinks about some not relevant exceptions.
I only show you anther person, who admit, that such rule exist. But you are doing everything to make it not existing.
Yes, you are willingly igniorant, and now you fight the truth, so soon you'll become a liar.
Even a tiny thing you have to deny, only to support your own private unsecure desire.

That’s citizenship though, not ethnicity.

Then, as above.

If you would not be willingly ignorant as you are now, I would say, that you see trees, but you do not see the forest. But, unfortunatly, it is to late to say it.

If you aren’t ethnically Polish, then you aren’t ethnically polish, it’s that simple.

Return to my link, and then you will see, that it isn;t, becasue it depends on what you have in mind using this term.

BUT I am disscussing with you the basic inheretable one, which is independent and clear. If you like simplicity, there is NO simplest one. But you refuse.

Your entire world view doesn’t have to be centered around your individual case.

The thing is that you are saying this about yourself.

For some people patrilineal line coincides with ethnicity, for others nope.

Oh! This is a good point to start to make reasoning process, but I am affraid, you will not follow this possibility.
You see the difference, but you deny that she exists. Interesting. Willingly ignorant indeed (yet).

Nope, I don’t want to change anything. I think it is you who want change things.

Hmm... I am saying only about the principle, on which are based allmost all religions, states, laws, codes, marriages, estates, customs, chronicles, legends, inheritances, tribes, clans, citizenshpis, powers, dynasties, and many more important inheritable things, what also linguistics and archeology support. So, tell me, how I am wanting to change something? How?

Disscussion with you is going insane. I am basing everything what I say, on real stuff, which examples of, I just enumarated and also mentioned people ON THIS forum, who also admitted the stuff or follow that way of thinking; you deny all of that, and say your wishfull thinking based on "just because", and then you say, that I am the one who want to change things... hmm... it is really a madness from you side, but let's yet stay with willing ignorance.

I’m not Slovak by your standards, because my Slovak ancestry isn’t patrilineal.

Then who? A Jew?

I don’t know what Cromak means.

Cromag. I wanted to slavicized it to make a rythm with Slovak.

I don't know about that and it doesn't matter.

And here we are... you are willingly ignorant, and you do not care.
So, do not pretend to be a good hungarian, so much upset when someone doubt it.
You don't care. If you do not care about yourself, about your family, then please do
not pretend that you care about some other group, f.e. hungarians.

If they identify as Poles and other Poles accept them as Poles, then they’re Poles regardless of their origin.

Yea, typical opinion of careless oportunist, who wants to fit to the crowd.

Hamites aren’t a thing, at least not in the way you use that word.

Descendats of Ham are Hamites, you like it or not. Period.

[Rethel]

Universe, lets make a deal. It will spare you insanity and both of us a lot of time.

Can you accept and repeat such simple statement:
— According to patrilineal principle I am Xyzian, but I do not like this, and I prefer my political hungarian identity, to which I use to, even if I am not an Ugrofinian.

Then, you will not deny the historical reality in general, and you will be able to fullfull your hungarian desire in full. Deal?

[Universe]

....You are only a one step of being a liar.

What about you?

If you can, everybody can.

Now you're claiming I'm not hungarian, or what?

Not in the meaning which you want it.

HE KNOWS HE ISN'T A GYPSY - in this case his Y has nothing to od with it. He didn't have to make any efferot because he knows it since he was born. He didn;t have to make y-test to know it, he didn't have to make genealogical research. He knew this since ever.

He identifies as a gypsy and by y-dna line I meant patrilineal line, I specified that previously.

To me it seems, everything has to fit to your disire.

Pot calling the kettle black?

Yes they do.

No, they do not.

It is not known for sure, what was his origin, but at least it seems (also from this what you say) that according to his knowledge he was Slovak.

He was a Hungarian person (with some slovak ancestry). He probably had more German ancestry than Slovak, but nevertheless he was an ethnic hungarian person. You may wish he wan't, but he was.

And as such, he was promoting the most stupid policy ever, the more anti-hungarian,

That's why there are people in Hungary looking up to him? Sometimes he's referred to as "Kossuth apánk" (="our father Kossuth").

than any Habsburg or Lothringen germanization policy. Being of foreign provenance and saying "we have to destroy others, and make them us, becasue we vanished" is so moronic, that I cannot even absorb such stupidity. Unfortunatly, many TA-hungarians follow such cuck way of thinking, and then you (pl) are upset, when someone will say: the king is naked. He is, not our fault.

He does and believes whatever he wants, he won't define his beliefs policies according to Rethelism.

The problem is, that you do not want to know things.

I do.

Repeating slogans,

and you aren't?

With every post, it is more obvious, that it isn't false.

I don't think so. As I said, my slovak ancestry isn't from paternal line (unlike that of Kossuth)

I am not going to discuss, what she thinks about some not relevant exceptions.

It's very relevant because it shows how she thinks of him. She called him a dirty gypsy not dirty serb for a reason. She -unlike you - also said Melania Trump isn't german.

I only show you anther person, who admit, that such rule exist.

Then in other posts she clearly contradicted that, so it's debatable if she subscribe to Rethelism. Why do you want to ignore everything that doesn't fit in your propaganda?

But you are doing everything to make it not existing.

Iam not, I'm just pointing out what she said in other topics. So she's doing everything to make it not exist, not me.

If you would not be willingly ignorant as you are now, I would say, that you see trees, but you do not see the forest. But, unfortunatly, it is to late to say it.

What do you mean?

Yes, you are willingly igniorant, and now you fight the truth, so soon you'll become a liar.

I am fighting lies. I believe in what is true, I don't believe in what is not true.

Even a tiny thing you have to deny, only to support your own private unsecure desire.

and you aren't doing that?

Hmm... I am saying only about the principle, on which are based allmost all religions, states, laws, codes, marriages, estates, customs, chronicles, legends, inheritances, tribes, clans, citizenshpis, powers, dynasties, and many more important inheritable things, what also linguistics and archeology support. So, tell me, how I am wanting to change something? How?

You're talking about citizenship laws. Saami were Swedish citizens but Swedes considered them undesirable and sterilized them in 20th century. In Hungary we have a large amount of gypsies and they aren't seen as hungarian ethnically by hungarians and by the gypsies themselves. Not to mention countries that are far more multiethnic/multiracial than Hungary. White and Black Anerucans/ South Africans don't have the same identity despite speaking the same language, living in the same country and holding the same citizenship. In France on paper there's no difference between White, Black and Brown Frenchmen, because the state doesn't keep statistics on ethnicity, but if you talk to White Frenchmen, many of them will say they don't consider Blacks living in France truly French. So much for that plastic civic identity. Ethnicity and citizenship are very different concepts.

You're ignoring that Nazi Germany, Jim Crow USA, Spanish casta system and Apartheid South Africa had autosomalist laws about citizenship as well as ethnicity/race, you're ignoring it because it simply doesn't fit in your propaganda. Your claim that "everyone in history subscribed to Rethelism" is simply a lie

Customs? Not identifying with patrlineal line is also a custom, that is how millions of non-R1 Poles and millions of non-N hungarians exist. I don't identify as a "cromagnon-I-Black man", my father and grandfather didn't either, so I'm just preserving the family's custom.

I just enumarated and also mentioned people ON THIS forum, who also admitted the stuff or follow that way of thinking;

How about enumerating people who don't agree with you? and stearsolina doesn't even agree with you, so why enumerate her? She argued Melania Trump wasn't a German.

you deny all of that, and say your wishfull thinking based on "just because", and then you say, that I am the one who want to change things... hmm... it is really a madness from you side, but let's yet stay with willing ignorance.

It is you who do that.

Then who? A Jew?

As I said in the other thread, I have no (known) Jewish ancestry.

And here we are... you are willingly ignorant, and you do not care.
So, do not pretend to be a good hungarian, so much upset when someone doubt it.
You don't care. If you do not care about yourself, about your family, then please do
not pretend that you care about some other group, f.e. hungarians.

I do care about myself and about my country.

Yea, typical opinion of careless oportunist, who wants to fit to the crowd.

If I am a "careless oportunist, who wants to fit to the crowd", then prove it. I can also call you a careless opportunist if I want to.

Descendats of Ham are Hamites, you like it or not. Period.

It doesn't matter if you consider them Hamites. They aren't Hamites in any meaningful way. There's no such thing as hamite identity, the people you consider hamites don't even know they are hamites. People with hamite haplogroups have the same identity as their countrymen without hamite haplogroups. Where are hamites on Polish/Moroccan/Albanian census?
and since when is Bible a scientific source?

— According to patrilineal principle I am Xyzian, but I do not like this, and I prefer my political hungarian identity, to which I use to, even if I am not an Ugrofinian.

It's not about preferences. I identify as who I am in reality.

Then, you will not deny the historical reality in general, and you will be able to fullfull your hungarian desire in full. Deal?

I am acknowledging historical reality.