Page 48 of 89 FirstFirst ... 3844454647484950515258 ... LastLast
Results 471 to 480 of 883

Thread: K13 modeling with TA members Vol. 2

  1. #471
    Veteran Member
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Kaspias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Ankara
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Rumelian
    Ethnicity
    Balkan Turkish, Pomak
    Country
    Turkey
    Y-DNA
    Q-F16045
    mtDNA
    K1a
    Gender
    Posts
    7,446
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 11,836
    Given: 7,303

    3 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vbnetkhio View Post
    what's your opinion on the Shopluk region?

    On Wikipedia it says it includes entire western Bulgaria (including the region you call Northwest), and is divided into Small, Big, White and Black Shopluk.
    But any Bulgarian I ask says he's never heard of that, and that it's just the region around Sofia.
    Bulgarians refer only to rural Sofia as Shopluk. Macedonians are also doesn't aware of Shopluk in Eastern Macedonia. Torlak, on the other hand, more like a meta-linguistic classification, and Shopluk is just a sub-ethnic group within Torlak speakers, the separative ethnological factors probably come from various other elements rather than linguistical difference. Black, White terms sources from Turkic Ak and Kara, were used to determine North and South in the Medieval. They are also borrowed by Vlachs, Greeks, and the rest of Bulgarians. Note that Pulevski classified this region as Black and White Shopluk in the 1860s and Cvijić in the 1890s.

    At that time period, covered regions in North Macedonia and Blagoevgrad and around were roughly half Muslim(incl. Turks and Pomaks) half Christian. The Southern part, East of Sandanski and the region included Greece, was around 80% Muslim, and almost all population were Pomak.

    The Christian Slav population in Western Bulgaria as a whole were migrated to Eastern and Central Bulgaria from Russo-Turkish War to the Communist regime. This created a homogenous Bulgarian population and led regional characteristics to die. For example, see how the surname Shopov is seen all over Bulgaria and has no concentration in Western Bulgaria:

    https://forebears.io/surnames/shopov

    So, I would presume that Cvijić's drawing could be superficial, for example, I do not believe Samokov and around had Shopis(they could be migrated there at that time period though?) and he drew this region to contribute to map integrity. However, there should be a reason why he and other classifiers who lived in these periods marked these further South and North as Shopluk. The events take place in the 20th century should be taken into account. Most reasonable explanation in my opinion would be the dissolution of Shopi culture in some regions in an attempt to create homogeneity within Christian Slavs and also I have to note the great possibility that some part of Shopis were Muslim, in North Macedonia and Southwestern Bulgaria, and these are/were left the region in an attempt to escape to Turkey or to the regions where Pomaks are the great majority. Eventually, Shopi identity carried out only in Sofia where the Shopi population created a great concentration. In the rest of the regions, it is standardized into other populations, by migrating to some other place.

    My village is in the further East of the region painted in Greece, and in between the Mountainous Komotini and Xanthi. Ancestral surname/nickname of my maternal lineage that comes from my great-great-grandfather is Şop(Šop.) Furthermore, Pomak language is not standardized in the region and even differs radically between neighboring villages. And this is one of the reasons why Pomaks switched their language into Turkish in the last 150 years. How the language can differ at such a level if all the population has the same regional origin? I think it can't.



    I can also supply this kit who is exactly from the painted region within Greece. Believing you are interested.

    Code:
    Population	 
    North_Atlantic	17.04 Pct
    Baltic	27.29 Pct
    West_Med	17.19 Pct
    West_Asian	13.29 Pct
    East_Med	21.18 Pct
    Red_Sea	0.44 Pct
    South_Asian	0.39 Pct
    East_Asian	0.83 Pct
    Siberian	1.19 Pct
    Amerindian	0.73 Pct
    Oceanian	0.42 Pct
    Northeast_African	-    
    Sub-Saharan	-  
    
    Population	 
    Gedrosia	6.18 Pct
    Siberian	0.68 Pct
    Northwest_African	-    
    Southeast_Asian	0.85 Pct
    Atlantic_Med	24.55 Pct
    North_European	33.17 Pct
    South_Asian	-    
    East_African	-    
    Southwest_Asian	6.02 Pct
    East_Asian	0.7 Pct
    Caucasus	27.85 Pct
    Sub_Saharan	-    
    
    
    Distance to:	Karlıkova
    2.43897519	Pomak_Bulgaria
    2.54998039	Pomak_Greece
    2.65789390	Bulgarian_Central
    3.08442863	Bulgarian_West
    3.42860030	Bulgarian_East
    3.55156304	Moldovan_Gagauz
    3.59094695	Greek_Macedonia
    3.92522611	Moldovan_South
    4.34451378	Romanian
    4.43758944	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    5.05372140	Macedonian_Polog
    5.73715086	Macedonian_East
    6.34733802	Montenegrin
    6.54463903	Macedonian_Vardar
    6.74487213	Turk_Deliorman
    6.97385833	Macedonian_South
    7.16557744	Turk_Makedonya
    7.78752207	Bulgarian_Thrace
    8.28214948	Albanian_Kosovo
    9.27037755	Serb
    9.58776825	Greek_Thessaly
    9.60307763	Greek_Thessaloniki
    9.75013846	Turk_Trakya
    9.89987374	Moldovan_Central
    10.05896615	Greek_Thrace

  2. #472
    Junior Member vlrs-2's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Last Online
    07-24-2023 @ 11:20 PM
    Ethnicity
    Bulgaria/Romania
    Ancestry
    Bulgaria/Romania
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Religion
    Orthodox
    Gender
    Posts
    36
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 26
    Given: 25

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    There is no such thing as White Shopluk that is encompassing the entire Western part of Bulgaria. This designation is unknown beyond Svoge/Vratsa area and the dialects and the population are different. The Shopluk teritory is at best that part shown on the attachment.

    Oblasti-Shopska-scaled.jpg

  3. #473
    Not even a member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Last Online
    04-23-2024 @ 10:45 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Indo-European, Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Country
    Brunei
    Region
    Russian Turkestan General Governorship
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP270
    Religion
    Orthodox
    Gender
    Posts
    24,142
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 15,592
    Given: 8,909

    2 Not allowed!

    Default

    Code:
    Chaos_One(Brazilian),23.43,6.52,18.53,5.98,15.97,2.57,2.15,1,0,8.58,0.3,0.67,14.31

  4. #474
    Senior Member Videx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Last Online
    11-01-2021 @ 05:58 PM
    Ethnicity
    Hungarian
    Ancestry
    Western Transdanubia - Hungary, Austria, Croatia
    Country
    Hungary
    Gender
    Posts
    791
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,356
    Given: 1,034

    2 Not allowed!

    Default

    Target: Videx
    Distance: 58.3621% / 0.58362146
    35.8 NielsW(Dutch-German)
    19.8 IrisSelene(Romanian-Hungarian)
    15.8 Visar(Pole)
    10.6 Peterski(Pole)
    8.6 War_Chief(Gagauz-Ossetian-Ukrainian)
    4.0 Stearsolina(Croat)
    3.2 Korialstrasz(Circassian-Georgian-Turk)
    2.2 I.vet(Russian)

    Target: Videx
    Distance: 142.6769% / 1.42676855 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    30.0 Viers(Hungarian)
    25.4 Not_a_Cop_Grandfather1(German-Russian-Pole)
    19.2 yowasgeht_father(German)
    13.8 War_Chief(Gagauz-Ossetian-Ukrainian)
    11.6 Turul_Karom(Hungarian)
    Nature always wins.

  5. #475
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Last Online
    03-11-2024 @ 04:25 PM
    Ethnicity
    Unknown
    Country
    Antarctica
    Gender
    Posts
    3,911
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 3,471
    Given: 1,541

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspias View Post
    Bulgarians refer only to rural Sofia as Shopluk. Macedonians are also doesn't aware of Shopluk in Eastern Macedonia. Torlak, on the other hand, more like a meta-linguistic classification, and Shopluk is just a sub-ethnic group within Torlak speakers, the separative ethnological factors probably come from various other elements rather than linguistical difference. Black, White terms sources from Turkic Ak and Kara, were used to determine North and South in the Medieval. They are also borrowed by Vlachs, Greeks, and the rest of Bulgarians. Note that Pulevski classified this region as Black and White Shopluk in the 1860s and Cvijić in the 1890s.

    At that time period, covered regions in North Macedonia and Blagoevgrad and around were roughly half Muslim(incl. Turks and Pomaks) half Christian. The Southern part, East of Sandanski and the region included Greece, was around 80% Muslim, and almost all population were Pomak.

    The Christian Slav population in Western Bulgaria as a whole were migrated to Eastern and Central Bulgaria from Russo-Turkish War to the Communist regime. This created a homogenous Bulgarian population and led regional characteristics to die. For example, see how the surname Shopov is seen all over Bulgaria and has no concentration in Western Bulgaria:

    https://forebears.io/surnames/shopov

    So, I would presume that Cvijić's drawing could be superficial, for example, I do not believe Samokov and around had Shopis(they could be migrated there at that time period though?) and he drew this region to contribute to map integrity. However, there should be a reason why he and other classifiers who lived in these periods marked these further South and North as Shopluk. The events take place in the 20th century should be taken into account. Most reasonable explanation in my opinion would be the dissolution of Shopi culture in some regions in an attempt to create homogeneity within Christian Slavs and also I have to note the great possibility that some part of Shopis were Muslim, in North Macedonia and Southwestern Bulgaria, and these are/were left the region in an attempt to escape to Turkey or to the regions where Pomaks are the great majority. Eventually, Shopi identity carried out only in Sofia where the Shopi population created a great concentration. In the rest of the regions, it is standardized into other populations, by migrating to some other place.

    My village is in the further East of the region painted in Greece, and in between the Mountainous Komotini and Xanthi. Ancestral surname/nickname of my maternal lineage that comes from my great-great-grandfather is Şop(Šop.) Furthermore, Pomak language is not standardized in the region and even differs radically between neighboring villages. And this is one of the reasons why Pomaks switched their language into Turkish in the last 150 years. How the language can differ at such a level if all the population has the same regional origin? I think it can't.
    I would just disagree with one thing, the Shop name actually doesn't correlate well with dialect borders. Even if we take the smaller borders vlrs-2 mentions, Shopi in Bulgaria fall into 3 different dialect groups.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_dialects
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialects

    in Macedonia too: (3 or 4 different dialects)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialects_of_Macedonian

    That map was drawn by a Wikipedia user btw, it could be wrong. I'll try to find more details on where Cvijić and Pulevski exactly place the border.
    About the southwestern part (Blagoevgrad, Sandanski), did the people there traditionally use the names Macedonia and Macedonian for themselves, or is that more recent?

  6. #476
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Last Online
    04-13-2024 @ 09:22 AM
    Ethnicity
    Healthy human being
    Country
    Moldova
    Gender
    Posts
    5,581
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 5,506
    Given: 1,507

    2 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    This is not true, they have less than 10 samples if I remember correctly, and Bulgarians are 2X more numerous than Croats and about similar to Serbs in population size (bit smaller)
    You don't remember correctly and all the samples that vlrs posted (Velislav on Anthrogenica) were donated by me to him on Anthrogenica. All of them make up the average for the Northwestern region.

    Average
    Name Number of Samples N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan
    Bulgaria_Northwestern 27 22.04 26.19 17.58 10.15 19.05 2.31 0.40 0.52 0.70 0.51 0.38 0.07 0.09

    Individuals

    N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan
    23.64 27.35 14.61 7.51 22.81 2.13 0.00 0.07 0.60 0.18 1.10 0.00 0.00
    16.56 29.65 18.57 12.50 17.17 2.86 0.00 1.40 0.38 0.00 0.91 0.00 0.00
    21.99 28.45 16.27 9.20 19.48 1.68 0.77 0 0.64 0.38 0.49 0.64 0
    19.15 27.43 18.03 9.58 21.11 1.97 1.30 0.46 0.23 0.18 0 0 0.55
    21.79 27.11 15.40 10.66 18.32 2.87 0.90 0.00 0.00 2.38 0.38 0.00 0.14
    19.28 28.94 19.30 7.62 20.70 2.32 0 0 0.25 0.18 0.62 0.18 0.61
    22.99 25.47 19.16 8.98 19.63 2.02 0 0 0.67 0.76 0.34 0 0
    21.30 26.25 18.15 9.42 19.00 3.05 0.00 1.33 0.56 0.95 0.00 0.00 0.00
    19.54 29.43 18.54 7.36 20.17 2.42 0.00 1.21 0.12 0.47 0.72 0.00 0.00
    20.03 23.02 14.16 12.47 23.48 4.64 0.00 0.00 1.33 0.00 0.88 0.00 0.00
    23.83 25.67 21.44 7.31 16.40 3.45 0 1.31 0 0 0.59 0 0
    22.62 28.68 16.12 10.81 18.32 0.90 0 0.61 0.90 0 0 0 1.03
    26.37 25.14 17.48 9.61 18.07 1.82 0 0.23 1.14 0 0.12 0 0
    22.74 29.76 18.24 7.01 17.47 1.53 0.00 1.33 0.82 0.14 0.96 0.00 0.00
    20.78 26.26 17.57 11.89 18.74 2.64 1.14 0.98 0 0 0 0 0
    20.51 29.91 17.82 11.04 17.23 2.34 0.00 0.00 0.42 0.54 0.00 0.00 0.20
    23.81 25.84 17.92 11.88 17.62 0.47 0.77 0.00 0.99 0.00 0.69 0.00 0.00
    24.91 26.33 16.56 6.75 17.77 4.54 0.55 0.53 1.23 0.59 0.00 0.25 0.00
    24.14 27.52 16.69 7.96 18.37 1.31 1.09 0.31 1.44 0.96 0.21 0.00 0.00
    21.36 22.75 19.61 13.11 18.83 0.77 0 1.02 1.85 0.71 0 0 0
    18.66 25.72 19.30 10.32 19.14 3.22 1.67 0.05 1.06 0.79 0.08 0 0
    22.95 23.87 20.21 7.80 19.65 2.09 0 1.46 0.65 0.58 0.74 0 0
    27.96 19.79 16.45 11.04 17.23 3.92 1.21 0.51 0.59 0.84 0.13 0.32 0
    23.08 20.91 18.56 10.34 22.35 3.45 0 0.51 0 0.81 0 0 0
    20.59 25.65 15.96 16.00 18.06 1.50 0.15 0 1.41 0.19 0.48 0 0
    19.81 27.73 18.00 13.08 16.46 2.19 0 0.71 1.07 0.45 0.50 0 0
    24.75 22.58 14.58 12.68 20.77 0.22 1.32 0 0.67 1.62 0.36 0.44 0

  7. #477
    Veteran Member Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"


    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Last Online
    03-13-2024 @ 06:31 PM
    Location
    Helsinki
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Country
    Finland
    Y-DNA
    I1
    mtDNA
    H39
    Politics
    Ugly history as it is. Don't blame me.
    Gender
    Posts
    4,729
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 3,437
    Given: 1,436

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    I have 44 academic Polish samples plus Sorbs, but turning them into Gedmatch is too much work only to hear Leto saying "bull shit" 🙂. So I understand why someones don't want to give him data.

  8. #478
    Not even a member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Last Online
    04-23-2024 @ 10:45 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Indo-European, Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Country
    Brunei
    Region
    Russian Turkestan General Governorship
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP270
    Religion
    Orthodox
    Gender
    Posts
    24,142
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 15,592
    Given: 8,909

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    I have 44 academic Polish samples plus Sorbs, but turning them into Gedmatch is too much work only to hear Leto saying "bull shit" ��. So I understand why someones don't want to give him data.
    Why are you mentioning me? I don't act in bad faith and if something just doesn't look right, I say it. Besides, it's not just me, I add things to the spreadsheet.

  9. #479
    account terminated.
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Last Online
    09-18-2023 @ 03:11 PM
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Country
    Abkhazia
    Gender
    Posts
    48,373
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 52,721
    Given: 43,621

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    You don't remember correctly and all the samples that vlrs posted (Velislav on Anthrogenica) were donated by me to him on Anthrogenica. All of them make up the average for the Northwestern region.

    Average
    Name Number of Samples N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan
    Bulgaria_Northwestern 27 22.04 26.19 17.58 10.15 19.05 2.31 0.40 0.52 0.70 0.51 0.38 0.07 0.09

    Individuals

    N_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian NE_African Sub-Saharan
    23.64 27.35 14.61 7.51 22.81 2.13 0.00 0.07 0.60 0.18 1.10 0.00 0.00
    16.56 29.65 18.57 12.50 17.17 2.86 0.00 1.40 0.38 0.00 0.91 0.00 0.00
    21.99 28.45 16.27 9.20 19.48 1.68 0.77 0 0.64 0.38 0.49 0.64 0
    19.15 27.43 18.03 9.58 21.11 1.97 1.30 0.46 0.23 0.18 0 0 0.55
    21.79 27.11 15.40 10.66 18.32 2.87 0.90 0.00 0.00 2.38 0.38 0.00 0.14
    19.28 28.94 19.30 7.62 20.70 2.32 0 0 0.25 0.18 0.62 0.18 0.61
    22.99 25.47 19.16 8.98 19.63 2.02 0 0 0.67 0.76 0.34 0 0
    21.30 26.25 18.15 9.42 19.00 3.05 0.00 1.33 0.56 0.95 0.00 0.00 0.00
    19.54 29.43 18.54 7.36 20.17 2.42 0.00 1.21 0.12 0.47 0.72 0.00 0.00
    20.03 23.02 14.16 12.47 23.48 4.64 0.00 0.00 1.33 0.00 0.88 0.00 0.00
    23.83 25.67 21.44 7.31 16.40 3.45 0 1.31 0 0 0.59 0 0
    22.62 28.68 16.12 10.81 18.32 0.90 0 0.61 0.90 0 0 0 1.03
    26.37 25.14 17.48 9.61 18.07 1.82 0 0.23 1.14 0 0.12 0 0
    22.74 29.76 18.24 7.01 17.47 1.53 0.00 1.33 0.82 0.14 0.96 0.00 0.00
    20.78 26.26 17.57 11.89 18.74 2.64 1.14 0.98 0 0 0 0 0
    20.51 29.91 17.82 11.04 17.23 2.34 0.00 0.00 0.42 0.54 0.00 0.00 0.20
    23.81 25.84 17.92 11.88 17.62 0.47 0.77 0.00 0.99 0.00 0.69 0.00 0.00
    24.91 26.33 16.56 6.75 17.77 4.54 0.55 0.53 1.23 0.59 0.00 0.25 0.00
    24.14 27.52 16.69 7.96 18.37 1.31 1.09 0.31 1.44 0.96 0.21 0.00 0.00
    21.36 22.75 19.61 13.11 18.83 0.77 0 1.02 1.85 0.71 0 0 0
    18.66 25.72 19.30 10.32 19.14 3.22 1.67 0.05 1.06 0.79 0.08 0 0
    22.95 23.87 20.21 7.80 19.65 2.09 0 1.46 0.65 0.58 0.74 0 0
    27.96 19.79 16.45 11.04 17.23 3.92 1.21 0.51 0.59 0.84 0.13 0.32 0
    23.08 20.91 18.56 10.34 22.35 3.45 0 0.51 0 0.81 0 0 0
    20.59 25.65 15.96 16.00 18.06 1.50 0.15 0 1.41 0.19 0.48 0 0
    19.81 27.73 18.00 13.08 16.46 2.19 0 0.71 1.07 0.45 0.50 0 0
    24.75 22.58 14.58 12.68 20.77 0.22 1.32 0 0.67 1.62 0.36 0.44 0
    Please read before posting. I was talking about Bulgarian member samples, not averages you made and in that I was correct, list had much more Croat and Serbs samples than Bulgarian.

  10. #480
    account terminated.
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Last Online
    09-18-2023 @ 03:11 PM
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Country
    Abkhazia
    Gender
    Posts
    48,373
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 52,721
    Given: 43,621

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    I have 44 academic Polish samples plus Sorbs, but turning them into Gedmatch is too much work only to hear Leto saying "bull shit" ��. So I understand why someones don't want to give him data.
    Leto contributes unselfishly to Vahaduo, same can't be said for some other members.

Page 48 of 89 FirstFirst ... 3844454647484950515258 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. G25 Modeling ancestry with TA members
    By Defcon2 in forum Autosomal DNA
    Replies: 357
    Last Post: 02-24-2024, 08:58 PM
  2. Vahaduo Modeling with TA Members: MDLP K23B Edition
    By RyoHazuki in forum Autosomal DNA
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 06-07-2022, 12:32 AM
  3. Replies: 1411
    Last Post: 05-03-2021, 06:33 PM
  4. 3d Modeling
    By Vargtand in forum Off-topic
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-07-2015, 06:31 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •