President de Sousa: "Islam is in Portugals soul"

[Cristiano viejo]

I said the Portuguese were more enlightened than others for their time, so of course I don't think it is a bad thing. And of course Brazil has always been more enlightened and liberal on racial issues than the USA, regardless of what other faults and problems it may have.

How many Obamas presidents has had Brazil?

[Hamilcar]

Not me specifically, but he said all portuguese have a Muslim ancestor which is wrong

how do you know ? Most people in al Andalus were muslims and it was at least 500 years ago therefore statistically speaking there is a high chance most if not all portuguese have at least one muslim ancestor.

[Centurion]

The truth is that, as the Iberians of the early 8th century were already often converted to Arianism, a non-trinitarian religion and as polygamy had already been allowed by the Visigothic kings, this had already prepare the ground for a natural, progressive switch toward Islam. The climate change ongoing at the time in the Iberian Peninsula facilitated even more the Arabic and Islamic influence, as farming techniques came from the Middle-East and North Africa became more and more needed.

The "Omeyad" Emirs of Cordoba, just like the so called "Berber" Tariq-Ibn-Ziyad were all depicted with red hair, blond hair, light eyes and Nordic features. They were likely to be of mostly European/Iberian/Germanic blood. And despite the whole genetic background of the Iberian Peninsula had been altered by NA admixture to some degree, it's very likely that the Arianist and Muslim Iberians of that time are to a large extent the ancestors of today's Iberians.

Occident is born with the Great Shism of 1054. At that time the most part of the Iberian Peninsula was part of Orient. It's only later, with the Reconquista, that it switched to Occident, but certainly not without violence. So we can say that even if Spain and Portugal are part of Occident today, their past is mixed. Partly Oriental, partly Occidental. And even their blood is mixed: mostly European but with a significant MENA admixture. It's not the same thing than with other countries like France, Germany, Hungary, England etc which were integrally part of Occident since the beginning.

[Cristiano viejo]

how do you know ? Most people in al Andalus were muslims and it was at least 500 years ago therefore statistically speaking there is a high chance most if not all portuguese have at least one muslim ancestor.

How that how do we know?? all the Muslims were killed or expelled, why in hell someone should have a Muslim ancestor?? it makes zero sense.

[Hamilcar]

How that how do we know?? all the Muslims were killed or expelled, why in hell someone should have a Muslim ancestor?? it makes zero sense.

Not all were killed or expelled many found refuge in Portugal or region like Galicia. Also many jews and muslims converted to christianity. You really think christians killed or expelled 6/7 million people ?

[Cristiano viejo]

Not all were killed or expelled many found refuge in Portugal or region like Galicia.

Literally false. Galicia?? wtf

Also many jews and muslims converted to christianity.

No, not "many". A very few did, but then they were persecuted by the Inquisition because they cryptojudaized or cryptoislamized. The result was the same.

You really think christians killed or expelled 6/7 million people ?

Not sure from where you get such numbers. In the 1500s there were only 5 millions in all Spain, most being Christians. In the 1600s, when the last Muslims were expelled, they only were around 325.000.



Spaniards descend from people that never were Muslims, that fought against Muslims since the beginning. Claiming we could have Muslim ancestors is hilarious.

[jfgh676]

Imagine the streets of Lishbuna, everyone is dancing to this song and wearing a Qamis. Cool song, liked it when I was still a child.

fixed

[Hamilcar]

Literally false. Galicia?? wtf

Yes in regions where the king had less authority and Portugal had a different policy regarding these muslims/jews.

After the Reconquest, the Moors were distributed homogeneously throughout the Peninsula, but their final expulsion in 1609 was absolute in certain regions of Spain, Valencia, and western Andalusia, whereas in Galicia and Extremadura, the population dispersed and integrated into society.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...#disqus_thread

No, not "many". A very few did, but then they were persecuted by the Inquisition because they cryptojudaized or cryptoislamized. The result was the same.

Not sure from where you get such numbers. In the 1500s there were only 5 millions in all Spain, most being Christians. In the 1600s, when the last Muslims were expelled, they only were around 325.000.

On the eve of the expulsion, ordered by the Catholic kings in Granada, in 1492, there were about 200,000 Jews in Spain. Almost half, often the richest and most cultivated, including a good number of rabbis, agreed to convert to Christianity to stay in the country, the remainder, between 80 and 100,000, preferred exile, and barely a third later returned to Spain claiming to have been baptized.

Serafin Fanjul, Al Andalus l'invention d'un Mythe, p. 54

More numerous were the Berbers who joined the Arab command in North Africa and constituted the bulk of the invasion force. Despite the withdrawal of substantial numbers during the drought and famine of the 750's, fresh Berber migration from North Africa was a constant feature of Andalusi history, increasing in tempo in the tenth century. Hispano- Romans who converted to Islam, numbering six or seven millions, comprised the majority of the population and also occupied the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Yet, through the system of clientage, substantial upward mobility was possible, especially among the Neo-Muslim elite.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...5b4f5177a?p2df



Stop pretending you know anything on the subject it's not credible.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes in regions where the king had less authority and Portugal had a different policy regarding these muslims/jews.

Less authority?? stop with the drugs, inventor.

You dont understand anything, that distribution that you talk is about the Moors of the Alpujarras, whom rebeled in 1571 and when they were defeated they were distributed outside Granada until that they were definitevely expelled in 1609. Specifically here:



Galicia... haha And you pretending that Muslims remained in Spain because they were distributed during 30 years...

Serafin Fanjul, Al Andalus l'invention d'un Mythe, p. 54

There are not consensus among historians, every one gives his own conjectures. Joseph Pérez, who unlike Serafín Fanjul was a Hispanist and not an Arabist, gives others different.

By the way I find very funny that you quote Serafín Fanjul, who must be the most anti-Islamic Arabist ever, and who claims the Moorish heritage in Spain is practically unexistent
Joseph Pérez explain very well in his masterpiece The Jews in Spain how the Inquisition cleaned the Spanish society of Cryptojews. And this coming from a Judeophile like himself...

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...5b4f5177a?p2df

Not sure what you pretend to claim here.

Stop pretending you know anything on the subject it's not credible.

For sure infinitely more than you, that think there were Moors in Galicia

[Cernunnos]

A proud Moor trying to find the remains of his ancestors...