The fact that some northern Italians use 'terroni' as a racial offense is quite funny

[JamesBond007]

That's CelticVsGermanic plot which is based on drift. The closest population to the Irish are West Scots. This is based on finescale studies such as PoBI and the Irish DNA Atlas.

This for example is the Global 25 Plot which uses genetic distance.



But all Isles populations form a cluster. There is not separation but more on a continuum and it makes sense geographically looking at how they plot. Only population that is somewhat separate is the Orcadians and if more finescaled the next population to separate would be the Welsh.



Also what is interesting about the above plot is that it shows what drift can do to a population that has the same ancestry as you can see how the Irish Travellers compare to the settled Irish.

Anyway this thread is not about Isles population but I wanted to clarify what was said about those populations. That's quite interesting and raises some interesting discussion. This drift with Travellers is only a few hundred years old as well. Anyway that should be another thread but it is very interesting to see what happens with populations quite quickly.

With all due respect I think the Celtic vs Germanic model is superior for this task. Global25 is called 'Global' for a reason.

Anyway, G25 :


Target: Irish
Distance: 0.8648% / 0.00864802
78.4 Insular_Celt
14.2 German
6.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
0.6 Roman



Target: English
Distance: 0.7651% / 0.00765080
54.2 Insular_Celt
21.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
10.6 Continental_celt
9.6 German
4.0 Roman

Insular_Celt:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.057171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
Insular_Celt:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.050388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
Insular_Celt:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.047804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003697,0.002289,-0.001317
Insular_Celt:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.045866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068,0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
Insular_Celt:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.046512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225,0.001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
Insular_Celt:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.050711,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156,0.132035,0.138112,0.057699,0.053295,0.038776,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0.007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160,0.129758,0.136081,0.059585,0.050388,0.03416,0.023427,0.002585,0.00923,0.002045,0.003827,-0.007632,0.009741,-0.016204,-0.018992,0.019951,-0.006099,-0.015776,0.008995,0.007542,0.003126,0.004243,0.001607,0.006409,0.012411,-0.000479
German:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
German:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
German:DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.004699,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
German:DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0.036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
German:DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494,0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
German:DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233,0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
German:DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.062225,0.037791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
German:DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.051288,0.04199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002588,0.011568,-0.003952
Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43,0.112685,0.15436,-0.033941,-0.067507,0.001539,-0.025658,0.002115,-0.006692,-0.007976,0.029158,0.005034,0.009142,-0.014123,0.004542,-0.020494,0.000663,0.017341,0.003294,0.003394,-0.002501,-0.010731,0.010881,-0.000493,0.008917,-0.001916
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44,0.118376,0.165531,-0.026398,-0.072998,0.00677,-0.019522,0.00188,-0.006231,-0.003886,0.032438,0.005521,0.005545,-0.013379,0.000413,-0.013436,-0.00305,0.015255,-0.001647,0.000126,-0.004627,0,0.000247,0.001479,0.007471,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.006461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.012893,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.002077,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.000838
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.133034,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.011999,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.118817,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.012692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.008796,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.094444,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.015922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.120848,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.019153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.138112,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.116786,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.013153,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.122879,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.003461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.128972,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.126941,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.015692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.01017,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0.002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.121864,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.016615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.012256,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003113

^I think that model, while not perfect, shows significant differences between the Irish and English.

[Grace O'Malley]

With all due respect I think the Celtic vs Germanic model is superior for this task. Global25 is called 'Global' for a reason.

Anyway, G25 :


Target: Irish
Distance: 0.8648% / 0.00864802
78.4 Insular_Celt
14.2 German
6.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
0.6 Roman



Target: English
Distance: 0.7651% / 0.00765080
54.2 Insular_Celt
21.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
10.6 Continental_celt
9.6 German
4.0 Roman

Insular_Celt:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.057171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
Insular_Celt:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.050388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
Insular_Celt:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.047804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003697,0.002289,-0.001317
Insular_Celt:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.045866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068,0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
Insular_Celt:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.046512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225,0.001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
Insular_Celt:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.050711,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156,0.132035,0.138112,0.057699,0.053295,0.038776,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0.007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160,0.129758,0.136081,0.059585,0.050388,0.03416,0.023427,0.002585,0.00923,0.002045,0.003827,-0.007632,0.009741,-0.016204,-0.018992,0.019951,-0.006099,-0.015776,0.008995,0.007542,0.003126,0.004243,0.001607,0.006409,0.012411,-0.000479
German:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
German:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
German:DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.004699,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
German:DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0.036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
German:DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494,0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
German:DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233,0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
German:DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.062225,0.037791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
German:DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.051288,0.04199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002588,0.011568,-0.003952
Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43,0.112685,0.15436,-0.033941,-0.067507,0.001539,-0.025658,0.002115,-0.006692,-0.007976,0.029158,0.005034,0.009142,-0.014123,0.004542,-0.020494,0.000663,0.017341,0.003294,0.003394,-0.002501,-0.010731,0.010881,-0.000493,0.008917,-0.001916
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44,0.118376,0.165531,-0.026398,-0.072998,0.00677,-0.019522,0.00188,-0.006231,-0.003886,0.032438,0.005521,0.005545,-0.013379,0.000413,-0.013436,-0.00305,0.015255,-0.001647,0.000126,-0.004627,0,0.000247,0.001479,0.007471,0.000599
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^I think that model, while not perfect, shows significant differences between the Irish and English.

It's for one particular purpose i.e. and is not based on distances. This is the quote for David on this.

The Celtic vs Germanic PCA is more heavily influenced by genetic drift specific to Ireland and the British Isles, so it stretches out the difference between the Irish and Germanics, and, as a result, doesn't need regional population samples as much as the Global25 to classify most Irish as Irish.

The fact that you're closer to Icelanders than to Irish in the Global25 just means that the Irish reference set doesn't describe your ancestry as well as it could in the context of global genetic diversity, but it's likely that if I added regional Irish groups to the Global25 then you'd match one or more of these reference sets better than the Icelanders.

The Celtic vs Germanic PCA isn't better than the Global25. It's actually much less informative overall, but very good at one very specific thing.

So you have to look at the full picture. There are many studies on the topic and really all Northwestern Europeans are quite similar which is why they cluster together. With English they have more Continental European ancestry but they still share a lot of genetics with the Irish as do other populations in that vicinity. Lots of Bronze Age similarity and really if there was major differences populations wouldn't cluster together. There has obviously been geneflow in recent times as well. Any population that is isolated will start clustering separately which you can see with Basques and even looking at people like Irish Travellers. People should leave their biases aside and be able to look at topics objectively.

[Jana]

Slavs always wish to live in Southern Europe.

I already live in southern Europe.

[Universe]

The English are not close to the Irish but the Welsh and Scottish kind of are:

Don't take his statement out of context. The genetic distance between English and Irish is smaller than the distance between Northern and Southern Italians.

[Diego Garcia]

Italians are in general distant from Europeans. Balkan and Iberia are closer for example and south Italians are closer to north Africa and middle east. Deal with it. It's nothing bad.

41 comments and already making troubles in the forum. Besides, displaying the german flag. Curious.

[Diego Garcia]

Sag Mal was hast du für ein Problem? Wenn Ich was hasse dann sind es ösis und Schweizer.

Google translator does not always work accurately, did you know it?

[Kross]

I already live in southern Europe.

I'm talking about Latin countries and Greece, Cyprus.

Our countries are much better than Slavic countries. Many of you wish to go there.

[HelpOswald]

Google translator does not always work accurately, did you know it?

God I'm lucky to not be a shitskin. Tell me how miserable it is, Pablo.

[Diego Garcia]

God I'm lucky to not be a shitskin. Tell me how miserable it is, Pablo.

Just do play a bit with Goethe's language. You so funny, dude

[Cristiano viejo]

God I'm lucky to not be a shitskin. Tell me how miserable it is, Pablo.

You wish refugee.