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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect

  1. #71
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I don't wanna talk to you but okay. To be clear, by "Middle Eastern" I mean Biblical Israelite ancestry, not some obscure pre-historic stuff. There's no way they are only 20% Middle Eastern as that model suggests. You need samples from 1000 BC through 1 AD. That's what I'm interested in.
    Why won't you talk to me?

    But no, it's clear that we're not just talking about 20%, you have to make a percentage between that figure and the Levantine groups. If the average Jew has 20% Levant_PPNB and Samaritan has 57.8%, that makes Ashkenazi Jews as at most 36% Jewish. As I wrote in the post, depending on what ancient population is being considered, the percentage may decrease or increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faklon View Post
    They look between modern Nothern Italians and Sardinians according to this.



    Still close to modern Central and Northern Italian whose shift doesn't seem that Near-Eastern as in Levant. Caucasian/CHG of some sort.
    They fall firmly within the Iberian cluster. I think there will be mass suicides on IR lolol

  2. #72
    Veteran Member Apricity Funding Member
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    late-Etruscan necropolis

    Casenovole (Civitella Paganico, Grosseto), n=12
    - Geographical coordinates: 43.033319, 11.332940
    - Radiocarbon dates range (n=6): 530-200 cal BCE


    genotype ratio 64%


    Distance to: CSN001
    1.07674610 IT_Lombardia
    1.21727846 FR_Corsica
    1.31327748 Swiss_Italian
    1.34293251 IT_Toscania
    1.37617915 IT_Liguria
    1.37624724 IT_Emilia-Romagna
    1.54215180 IT_Trentino
    1.66358559 FR_Savoie
    1.68819930 Portugal_Norte
    1.72788155 IT_Piedmont

    Target: CSN001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    74.8 IT_Lombardia
    10.7 IT_southern_Sardinian
    8.6 FR_Savoie
    5.9 ES_Burgos


    genotype ratio 41%

    Distance to: CSN003
    1.02598413 IT_Piedmont
    1.09820911 Swiss_Italian
    1.11246629 FR_Provence
    1.25731274 IT_Trentino
    1.26321612 FR_Corsica
    1.27150257 ES_Cataluna
    1.27518650 ES_Galicia
    1.28986361 IT_Lombardia
    1.29048287 IT_Veneto
    1.29672708 PT_Azores



    Target: CSN003 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    26.3 IT_Lombardia
    19.4 IT_central_Sardinian
    18.8 FR_Champagne-Ardenne
    15.7 ES_Huesca
    8.4 Swiss_Italian
    6.6 DE_Brandenburg
    4.8 Saudi_Arabian

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    Is there any substancial Mycenaean or Balkan shift in Etruscans that would explain part of the ''West Asian'' in modern Tuscans? Are we able to measure that even, the populations (Central Italy/Balkans) being exceptionally close?

  4. #74
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    Code:
    780-540 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2	P312
    770-520 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu 	G2a2b2a1	L140/S316
    770-540 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	G2a2b2a1a1b	L497/S317
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    427-265 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related	-	-
    380-204 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a	Z2247
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	J2b2a1	L283
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	R1b1a1b1a1a2	P312
    533-392 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2/S139
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    427-265 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2	P312
    380-204 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_related	R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a	Z2247
    -	-	n/a	n/a
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    139-326 CE	C.Italy_Imperial	-	-
    997-1149 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	R1b1a1b1a	L51
    -	-	n/a	n/a
    805-774 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    772-888 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	-	-
    775-945 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated	n/a	n/a
    899-1016  CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	-	-
    977-1022 CE 	C.Italy_Early.Medieval_ETR014	J1a2a1a2	P58/Page8/PF4698
    40-190 CE	-	n/a	n/a
    407-534 CE	C.Italy_Imperial	I1	-
    790-550 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a	L151
    350-100 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_MAS001	G2a2b2a1a1c1a1	CTS5990/Z1903
    240-380 CE	C.Italy_Imperial	R1b1a1b1b	Z2103
    400-530 CE	C.Italy_Imperial	R1b1a1b	M269/PF6517
    804-557 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1	P310
    772-960 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2
    794-543 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    772-436 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2
    356-96 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_related	-	-
    103 BCE-54 CE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2	P312
    729-942 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	R1b1a1b1a1a2b	U152
    346-51 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_related	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	G2a2b2a1a1b1	CTS9737/Z1815
    391-207 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    899-1021 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	I1a2a1a1a1a	S1954/YSC0000261
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	R1b1a1b1a1a2	P312
    895-1016 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	R1b1a1b1a1a1	M405/U106/S21
    346-51 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    -	C.Italy_Etruscan_undated	-	-
    356-96 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_related	R1b1a1b1a	L51
    346-51 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_related	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2
    358-98 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    89-236 CE	C.Italy_Imperial	J2a1a1a2	Z2229
    262-424 CE	C.Italy_Imperial	J2a1a1a2b1b	M319
    1018-1151 CE	C.Italy_Early.Medieval 	-	-
    396-216 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr	G2a2b2a1a1c1a1	CTS5990/Z1903
    356-96 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a2	PF7589/Z2118
    174-53 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan_UDC_P	R1b1a1b1a1a2	P312
    650-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	J2a1a1a2b2a2b3a	L210
    650-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa_VEN002	-	-
    650-763 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	-	-
    650-763 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	J2b2a1	L283
    660-766 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	E1b1b1a1b1	L618
    660-766 CE	S.Italy_Venosa_related	-	-
    670-775 CE	S.Italy_Venosa_related	J2b	M12
    670-775 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	G2a2b2a1	L140/S316
    670-775 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	J2b2a1	L283
    670-775 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	-	-
    670-775 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	-	-
    672-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	-	-
    672-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa_related	n/a	n/a
    672-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa	-	-
    672-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa_related	-	-
    672-800 CE	S.Italy_Venosa_related	G2a2b2a	P303/Page108/PF3340/S135/Z765
    750-406 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    790-550 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	G2a2b2b1a1a	PF3378
    800-590 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    360-200 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu 	-	-
    359-199 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr_VET006.9	-	-
    806-599 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    372-204 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr	-	-
    788-545 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	-	-
    750-413 BCE	-	n/a	n/a
    790-550 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2
    200-60 BCE	C.Italy_Etruscan	R1b1a1b1a1a2b1	L2

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    late-Etruscan necropolis

    Casenovole (Civitella Paganico, Grosseto), n=12
    - Geographical coordinates: 43.033319, 11.332940
    - Radiocarbon dates range (n=6): 530-200 cal BCE


    genotype ratio 64%


    Distance to: CSN001
    1.07674610 IT_Lombardia
    1.21727846 FR_Corsica
    1.31327748 Swiss_Italian
    1.34293251 IT_Toscania
    1.37617915 IT_Liguria
    1.37624724 IT_Emilia-Romagna
    1.54215180 IT_Trentino
    1.66358559 FR_Savoie
    1.68819930 Portugal_Norte
    1.72788155 IT_Piedmont

    Target: CSN001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    74.8 IT_Lombardia
    10.7 IT_southern_Sardinian
    8.6 FR_Savoie
    5.9 ES_Burgos


    genotype ratio 41%

    Distance to: CSN003
    1.02598413 IT_Piedmont
    1.09820911 Swiss_Italian
    1.11246629 FR_Provence
    1.25731274 IT_Trentino
    1.26321612 FR_Corsica
    1.27150257 ES_Cataluna
    1.27518650 ES_Galicia
    1.28986361 IT_Lombardia
    1.29048287 IT_Veneto
    1.29672708 PT_Azores



    Target: CSN003 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    26.3 IT_Lombardia
    19.4 IT_central_Sardinian
    18.8 FR_Champagne-Ardenne
    15.7 ES_Huesca
    8.4 Swiss_Italian
    6.6 DE_Brandenburg
    4.8 Saudi_Arabian
    Please, Lucas, can you do the same withe the samples "Etruscan CEU" who, apparently, plot close or with the French, if i am not mistaken.

  6. #76
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.S. View Post
    Please, Lucas, can you do the same withe the samples "Etruscan CEU" who, apparently, plot close or with the French, if i am not mistaken.
    From Jovialis' post:

    Code:
    Distance to:	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tuscany)_427-265BCE:CSN002
    9.95255809	Swiss_Italian
    10.05901089	Italian_Trentino
    10.96726949	Italian_Veneto
    11.51826810	Italian_Lombardy
    12.05897591	Italian_Aosta_Valley
    
    Distance to:	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_360-200BCE:VET005
    5.68386312	French_North
    6.47929780	French_Northwest
    6.56206522	French_Northeast
    7.24151918	Belgian
    7.40929821	English_South
    
    Distance to:	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscany)_770-520BCE:CAM002
    5.75750814	Italian_Aosta_Valley
    5.79004318	French_Northeast
    6.57764396	French_North
    7.71435675	Bavarian_German
    8.10896418	Italian_Trentino

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    From Jovialis' post:

    Code:
    Distance to:	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tuscany)_427-265BCE:CSN002
    9.95255809	Swiss_Italian
    10.05901089	Italian_Trentino
    10.96726949	Italian_Veneto
    11.51826810	Italian_Lombardy
    12.05897591	Italian_Aosta_Valley
    
    Distance to:	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_360-200BCE:VET005
    5.68386312	French_North
    6.47929780	French_Northwest
    6.56206522	French_Northeast
    7.24151918	Belgian
    7.40929821	English_South
    
    Distance to:	C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscany)_770-520BCE:CAM002
    5.75750814	Italian_Aosta_Valley
    5.79004318	French_Northeast
    6.57764396	French_North
    7.71435675	Bavarian_German
    8.10896418	Italian_Trentino
    Thank you very much !

  8. #78
    Veteran Member Voskos's Avatar
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    Admixtures, copied from publication :
    Code:
    Test	            Anatolia_N  WHG   Yamnaya  Iran_N	Morocco_EN
    C.Italy_Early.Medieval	0,573	0,066	0,199	0,162	0
    C.Italy_Etruscan	0,646   0,122	0,233	0	0
    C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr 	0,622	0,071	0,054	0,202	0,051
    C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu 	0,473	0,149	0,377	0	0
    C.Italy_Imperial 	 0,65	0,04	0,15	0,131	0,029
    TSI.SG	                0,468	0,089	0,196	0,247	0
    Tuscan.DG	        0,443	0,094	0,223	0,24	0

  9. #79
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    Why in the official studies they model always ancient/modern italians only with iran neolithic and never with natufian or neolithic levant?
    Target: Andre_scaled
    Distance: 2.6411% / 0.02641109
    57.8 BGR_IA
    36.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
    6.2 RUS_Altai_IA

  10. #80
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    I'm suprised no one talked about this :

    The three individuals grouped in C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr—after exclusion of a genetic outlier (Materials and Methods, Fig. 4A, and table S2A)—cannot be modeled as a mixture between Neolithic-related and Bronze Age–related European ancestries (table S4B). These individuals are dated to around 300 BCE and were excavated at two archeological sites separated by a distance greater than 100 km (Tarquinia and Vetulonia). Statistics in the form f3(C.Italy_Etruscan, X; C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr) and f4(Onge, X, C.Italy_Etruscan, C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr) show evidence of C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr being a mixture of Etruscans and ancient or modern-day individuals (as a proxy) carrying high proportions of north African or sub-Saharan ancestries (tables S2, B and C, and S3, A and B). Using qpAdm, all admixture models including C.Italy_Etruscan as one of the sources are rejected (table S4D). However, given the limited availability of genomes from northern Africa with comparable ages (26), we caution that ancestry proportions might be more correctly estimated as additional data from this region become available.
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673



    Another proof carthaginians were north african, it's crazy how almost every paper on ancient Iberia/italy show either north african admixture or north african individuals.

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