Celts don't exist ?

**~~JamesBond007~~** · 06-22-2021, 11:09 AM

Do Celts exist in the modern world or are they a myth ? I think they have been absorbed into both the Germanic and Roman worlds. Also, Scots and the Irish speak Germanic tongues. Bretons in France speak a Celtic language but how many speak French , too ? How many Welsh speak Cymru more than English daily?I am not saying Celts were wiped out per se but that there seems to have been a lot ofmixing in modern times in Celtic lands.

Then there is the matter of genetics.Obviously, Celtic is a culture but I can't help but imagine the ancient Celts (at least in Ireland) were more genetically 'celtic' : :

Code:

Insular_Celt:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.057171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
Insular_Celt:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.050388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
Insular_Celt:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.047804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003697,0.002289,-0.001317
Insular_Celt:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.045866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068,0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
Insular_Celt:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.046512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225,0.001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
Insular_Celt:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.050711,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156,0.132035,0.138112,0.057699,0.053295,0.038776,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0.007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160,0.129758,0.136081,0.059585,0.050388,0.03416,0.023427,0.002585,0.00923,0.002045,0.003827,-0.007632,0.009741,-0.016204,-0.018992,0.019951,-0.006099,-0.015776,0.008995,0.007542,0.003126,0.004243,0.001607,0.006409,0.012411,-0.000479
German_MA:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
German_MA:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
German_MA:DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.004699,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
German_MA:DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0.036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
German_MA:DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494,0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
German_MA:DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233,0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
German_MA:DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.062225,0.037791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
German_MA:DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.051288,0.04199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002588,0.011568,-0.003952
Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43,0.112685,0.15436,-0.033941,-0.067507,0.001539,-0.025658,0.002115,-0.006692,-0.007976,0.029158,0.005034,0.009142,-0.014123,0.004542,-0.020494,0.000663,0.017341,0.003294,0.003394,-0.002501,-0.010731,0.010881,-0.000493,0.008917,-0.001916
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44,0.118376,0.165531,-0.026398,-0.072998,0.00677,-0.019522,0.00188,-0.006231,-0.003886,0.032438,0.005521,0.005545,-0.013379,0.000413,-0.013436,-0.00305,0.015255,-0.001647,0.000126,-0.004627,0,0.000247,0.001479,0.007471,0.000599
England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.059109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.053618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0.004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.003645,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.059432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.00037,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.071383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.051034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227,0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.000863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.050388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084,0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.004777,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.062339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015183,0.001916
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.006461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.012893,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.002077,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.0
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.133034,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.011999,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.118817,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.012692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.008796,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.094444,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.015922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.120848,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.019153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.138112,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.116786,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.013153,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.122879,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.003461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.128972,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.126941,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.015692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.01017,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0.002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.121864,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.016615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.012256,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003113

Target: English
Distance: 0.5764% / 0.00576355
53.2 England_Saxon
21.6 Insular_Celt
14.8 Continental_celt
5.0 German_MA
3.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.4 Roman

Target: German
Distance: 0.3985% / 0.00398523
55.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
16.0 Continental_celt
14.4 England_Saxon
9.8 Roman
2.2 Insular_Celt
2.0 German_MA

Target: Welsh
Distance: 0.5497% / 0.00549719
55.8 England_Saxon
16.6 Insular_Celt
16.2 Continental_celt
6.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
3.6 Roman
1.8 German_MA

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 0.7176% / 0.00717555
41.4 Insular_Celt
32.0 England_Saxon
17.4 Continental_celt
5.2 Roman
4.0 German_MA

Target: Irish
Distance: 0.7314% / 0.00731383
48.6 Insular_Celt
39.8 England_Saxon
7.0 German_MA
3.8 Continental_celt
0.8 Roman

Target: Scottish
Distance: 0.5180% / 0.00517992
50.4 England_Saxon
27.0 Insular_Celt
11.6 German_MA
10.0 Continental_celt
0.6 Roman
0.4 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

P.S. Ruggery once insisted I looked 'celtic' and anglo-celt (sock puppet) too etc.. so that got me thinking who the fuck is 'celtic'? Apparently no one !:

Target: Jamesbond007
Distance: 1.8788% / 0.01878771
70.6 England_Saxon
11.6 Insular_Celt
10.0 German_MA
6.2 Roman
1.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

**~~gixajo~~** · 06-22-2021, 11:28 AM

Well...

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.9930% / 0.02992953
67.8 Continental_celt
21.8 Roman
9.4 England_Saxon
1.0 German_MA

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 3.6331% / 0.03633118
69.4 Continental_celt
30.0 Roman
0.6 England_Saxon

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.6980% / 0.02697953
80.8 Continental_celt
13.6 Roman
5.6 England_Saxon

Those who were called Celts by the Greeks and Romans were diverse groups of people, who could have had a common origin in the remote past, and who still maintained some similar cultural traits when at the time they were known to those Greeks and Romans.

Everything else is modern labels.

What were the original Celts genetically like?

Well ... it depends on what you want to take as a reference.

Edit:I added one NA reference to get closer distances:

Code:

MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5e-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 2.1921% / 0.02192086
60.0 Continental_celt
12.6 MAR_LN
11.8 Insular_Celt
10.8 Roman
4.8 England_Saxon

Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 2.1662% / 0.02166165
53.8 Continental_celt
18.2 MAR_LN
14.8 Roman
13.2 Insular_Celt

Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 2.2712% / 0.02271150
72.4 Continental_celt
12.4 Insular_Celt
9.8 MAR_LN
5.4 Roman

Celtiberian Berones tribe during Iron Age:

Target: Iberia_North_IA
Distance: 2.8057% / 0.02805654
83.0 Continental_celt
9.6 MAR_LN
7.4 England_Saxon

**IndoEuropeanR1b** · 06-22-2021, 11:31 AM

The is no such thing as celts. There are britons, picts, gaels, gauls, etc. You can see this in their Y-DNA sub-clades and autosomally.

**Grace O'Malley** · 06-22-2021, 11:44 AM

This is what I get with that model.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 0.0133% / 0.01325440
45.0 England_Saxon
40.9 Insular_Celt
6.6 German_MA
4.9 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.6 Continental_celt

All populations will get some mix. I don't know what conclusion can be reached and whether something like G25 can be used to deduce what happened in the past.

This is what Norwegians get.

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 0.0094% / 0.00935083
44.7 England_Saxon
28.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
15.8 Insular_Celt
11.5 German_MA

I don't think Irish have much Continental Celt for example. There is still a lot of missing pieces so more ancient genomes and more studies would be greatly welcomed.

**~~gixajo~~** · 06-22-2021, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley

This is what I get with that model.

All populations will get some mix. I don't know what conclusion can be reached and whether something like G25 can be used to deduce what happened in the past.

I don't think Irish have much Continental Celt for example. There is still a lot of missing pieces so more ancient genomes and more studies would be greatly welcomed.

My father from Andalusia is more Celt (continental) than you, Irish are not are not authentic Celts !!!

Sorry Grace, but this model has proven your lie exposing your deception...

**Grace O'Malley** · 06-22-2021, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by gixajo

My father from Andalusia is more Celt (continental) than you, Irish are not are not authentic Celts !!!

Sorry Grace, but this model has proven your lie exposing your deception...

Yes it's interesting. The Continental Celtic samples aren't a great match for the Irish. Davidski said there was a lot of Celtic genomes but there has been nothing published which is frustrating.

I think you Spanish should start wearing kilts and drinking whiskey.

**~~gixajo~~** · 06-22-2021, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley

Yes it's interesting. The Continental Celtic samples aren't a great match for the Irish. Davidski said there was a lot of Celtic genomes but there has been nothing published which is frustrating.

I think you Spanish should start wearing kilts and drinking whiskey.

As you say, we need more ancient samples of all those who were called Celts, and seeing if there exists a "genetic common factor" among them (if it exists at all).

Yes, I should start wearing kilt, I have beautiful legs and should show them more often.

**Gallop** · 06-22-2021, 12:11 PM

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.5203% / 0.03520293
72.6 Continental_celt
23.0 Roman
3.8 German_MA
0.6 Insular_Celt

Distance

Spoiler!

2WAY

Spoiler!

Whit NA sample

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 1.8691% / 0.01869059
56.8 Continental_celt
18.8 MAR_LN
18.0 Insular_Celt
6.4 Roman

Distance

Spoiler!

2WAY

Spoiler!

With the Guanche sample.

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.5198% / 0.03519753
72.8 Continental_celt
23.0 Roman
4.2 German_MA

Distance
196982.09372824 Canary_Islands_Guanche

**Grace O'Malley** · 06-22-2021, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by gixajo

As you say, we need more ancient samples of all those who were called Celts, and seeing if there exists a "genetic common factor" among them (if it exists at all).

Yes, I should start wearing kilt, I have beautiful legs and should show them more often.

Haha. Lovely. I'm sure a kilt would really suit you.

**Peterski** · 06-22-2021, 12:19 PM

Come on do you really believe that French_Brittany is 32.0 England_Saxon ???

This result showed up only because England_Saxon is majority Celtic itself.