Celts don't exist ?

[Hamilcar]

With the right model you can demonstrate almost anything, including close to 25% Insular_Celt in portuguese people, which has no base of reality. Clearly there are some native samples missing in this model.
And like we discussed before, we have no west Iron Age iberian samples for a good model. I'm sure that would shift some scores if they were present.

You can discuss for these euro components but 15% guanche (which were already similar to NAs like me) is totally in line with what the studies tell us. It doesn't seem too crazy

[Hamilcar]

I know you like Guanches, because they seem to you a proof that your people of the present time were similar to the ones that lived in your area a long time ago, but I doubt that is the case.

We have spoken about this issue many times, but sorry, I'm going to keep thinking the same thing, until I see many more ancient individuals from West NA.

So they happened to be similar to us by pure concidence ? Do you at least know the people who colonized these islands came from morocco ? And that they faced two major migration movements ? These same canarians weren't involve in the trans-saharian slave trade nor did they met any arab, roman or phoenician (the only exception would be contacts with NAs during the roman era).


Anyway Let's wait for more samples and you'll see I was right.

That´s is the question.

How can they be the same if you received hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from the Iberian Peninsula, and a hundred years later another hundreds of thousands of Moors, after having been invaded by the Arabs, who in turn came after the Romans and the Phoenicians. ?

You were genetically in a way, for centuries you were separating, and finally you came back to look like the originals? it´s too strange Nass.

If it really is as you say, I would have no problem accepting it.

And please, let's put aside the typical discussion that you usually have with Spanish and Portuguese about the usual issues, I am not comparing Iberians and NAs, not about Al Andalus or anything like that.



And...results?

Here again you show your ignorance : why do you think I keep repeating ancient carthaginians/punics were infact punicized north africans ? Read about roman north africa and you'll see that romans never massively settled in north africa same for arabs who mostly impacted libya and some parts of tunisia but not really Morocco. Also why would the thousands of Jews mixed with muslims ? These moriscos weren't enough but you can still found maghrebis with elevated iberian ancestry because of their morisco background.

Nothing strange here it's simply because you haven't read much about our history and think that we faced the same changes as your people or other med pops.

[gixajo]

With the right model you can demonstrate almost anything, including close to 25% Insular_Celt in portuguese people, which has no base of reality. Clearly there are some native samples missing in this model.
And like we discussed before, we have no west Iron Age iberian samples for a good model. I'm sure that would shift some scores if they were present.

Well, Nass is right saying that MAR_LN is an horrible reference to represent the transition between BA-IA in West North Africa, but I think that Guanches do not represent the reality of that area at that time either, because , they are a very special population, and that we should leave aside, no matter how much they like to use it, since it reaffirms their identity.

I am not even saying that it is not true that it is as he says, I am just saying that there are too many doubts about the Guanches to continually put them as references, simply because there is nothing else. that we can use in the datasheet.

I would be happy if he understands why I say what I say, and above all, that he does not deny so emphatically what I am proposing.

[Hamilcar]

Well, Nass is right saying that MAR_LN is an horrible reference to represent the transition between BA-IA in West North Africa, but I think that Guanches do not represent the reality of that area at that time either, because , they are a very special population, and that we should leave aside, no matter how much they like to use it, since it reaffirms their identity.

I am not even saying that it is not true that it is as he says, I am just saying that there are too many doubts about the Guanches to continually put them as references, simply because there is nothing else. that we can use in the datasheet.

I would be happy if he understands why I say what I say, and above all, that he does not deny so emphatically what I am proposing.

but your reasoning is extremely ridiculous wtf

who cares about identity or whatever you can't deny these samples are objectively similar to us and cluster with us so what's special about them ? Since you know they were isolated you would naturally conclude that the first settlers of these islands who came from Morocco were in fact similar to modern north africans and these settlements appeared during the iron age.

[gixajo]

So they happened to be similar to us by pure concidence ? Do you at least know the people who colonized these islands came from morocco ? And that they faced two major migration movements ? These same canarians weren't involve in the trans-saharian slave trade nor did they met any arab, roman or phoenician (the only exception would be contacts with NAs during the roman era).


Anyway Let's wait for more samples and you'll see I was right.





Here again you show your ignorance : why do you think I keep repeating ancient carthaginians/punics were infact punicized north africans ? Read about roman north africa and you'll see that romans never massively settled in north africa same for arabs who mostly impacted libya and some parts of tunisia but not really Morocco. Also why would the thousands of Jews mixed with muslims ? These moriscos weren't enough but you can still found maghrebis with elevated iberian ancestry because of their morisco background.

Nothing strange here it's simply because you haven't read much about our history and think that we faced the same changes as your people or other med pops.

Nass...

Stop thinking about "us" and "you" try to distance yourself from all that, and look at the matter from afar, forget for a moment that you are of Moroccan origin, and rethink what I said.

And calm down, and leave out the offensive mode, please.

[Hamilcar]

Nass...

Stop thinking about "us" and "you" try to distance yourself from all that, and look at the matter from afar, forget for a moment that you are of Moroccan origin, and rethink what I said.

And calm down, and leave out the offensive mode, please.

hahah but I really can't understand your reasoning you have the fucking samples in front of your eyes and you still try to pass them for "special"


what kind of mental gynmastics is this : canarians were "special" similar to modern north africans while the rest of IA NAs were in fact mixed with roman, phoenician, arab or whatever else and then by idk what kind of magic they became similar to modern NAs


the only special element here is your way of reasoning

[gixajo]

who cares about identity or whatever you can't deny these samples are objectively similar to us and cluster with us so what's special about them ?

You care!!!

Is a comma missing from that text?

Either I convey my opinion very badly or you don't understand anything I'm saying, because I don´t deny this.

Since you know they were isolated you would naturally conclude that the first settlers of these islands who came from Morocco were in fact similar to modern north africans and these settlements appeared during the iron age.

Nope.

but your reasoning is extremely ridiculous wtf

My logical reasoning usually works perfectly, and for now on this matter I think it continues to do so.

If you want, read again what I have commented, and do the exercise of rethinking it.

Now I'm going to sleep.

[Anglo-Celtic]

I'm not Ruggery. Are you Desaix DeBurgh? Anyway, it might be time to find a good replacement for "Celt" in our discussions on these boards. It has more to do with culture and language than it does with ethnicity. It's a bit like "Hispanic" and "Latino". Think about how the Spanish had a great impact on Native Americans in Latin America. Maybe the Continental Celts had that same kind of impact on Isles Natives, although the ethnic disparities weren't as great. It's an uphill battle, though.

[Hamilcar]

You care!!!

Is a comma missing from that text?

Either I convey my opinion very badly or you don't understand anything I'm saying, because I don´t deny this.

Therefore if you don't deny it answer my question please : why are you saying they are special ?

Nope.

Therefore you suppose they weren't isolated and mixed with some unknown population and magically ended up being similar to modern north africans...

My logical reasoning usually works perfectly, and for now on this matter I think it continues to do so.

If you want, read again what I have commented, and do the exercise of rethinking it.

Now I'm going to sleep.

I perfectly understood it you're proposing a scenario where IA north africans might have been different than modern north africans and guanches being not necessarily representative of these ancient NAs but it seems you don't even see how ridiculous that reasoning is.

[gixajo]

Good morning, I'm having breakfast just now.

[QUOTE=Hamilcar;7227108]Therefore if you don't deny it answer my question please : why are you saying they are special ? [QUOTE]

You should already know, because I have given you the necessary clues so that you know.

Therefore you suppose they weren't isolated and mixed with some unknown population and magically ended up being similar to modern north africans...

No, I think they were isolated from a short time after reaching the islands.

I perfectly understood it you're proposing a scenario where IA north africans might have been different than modern north africans and guanches being not necessarily representative of these ancient NAs but it seems you don't even see how ridiculous that reasoning is.

Yes and no at the same time.

What I am proposing (and never affirming) is a scenario in which the Guanches were representative of a very localized population of the NA, but not of the majority of the NA.

I liked the expression "proposing a scenario", because that is really what I am doing, "propose a scenario" an alternative scenario, a different way to explain what we have in our hands.

It seems very good to me that you do not agree with what I propose, but what I propose is neither ridiculous, nor is it the product of ignorance, nor is it illogical.

And most importantly for you, it does not imply any demerit for your people.

And of course, I doubt very much that you will find anything that supports what I say, because what I am proposing is something that I have created, and no one has told me.

And by the way, you should take something to remember, because a long time ago I told you about all this, even in more depth, and you were not so aggressive or disrespectful.(You were, because you always are, but not so much).