Celts don't exist ?

[gixajo]

......

And sorry JB007 for derailing your thread.

[Dunai]

Celt is simply a linguistic category, just as Slavic or Finno-Ugric or Romance. Genetically people speaking these languages don't have very much in common. Languages don't necessarily spread through direct genetic transmission, but largely through culture, as genetically unrelated people will pick up a new language either through being forced to or simply by being more fashionable in that given era.

[Gallop]

With the Guanche sample

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.5198% / 0.03519753
72.8 Continental_celt
23.0 Roman
4.2 German_MA

Spoiler!

Distance to: Gallop_scaled
0.04950921 Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_BylanyA111
0.07192624 Insular_Celt:6DT22
0.07690780 Insular_Celt:6DT23
0.07730566 German_MAEU_MA_ACD:STR_220
0.08048659 Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156
0.08049338 Insular_Celt:3DT16
0.08061363 England_Saxon:I0161
0.08072115 Insular_Celt:6DT21
0.08097823 Insular_Celt:6DT18
0.08198470 Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160
0.08295194 German_MAEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33
0.08311004 German_MAEU_MA:ALH_1
0.08391995 England_Saxon:I0774
0.08567350 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002
0.08621744 England_Saxon:I0777
0.08796950 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.08807814 England_Saxon:I0159
0.08920828 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.09019082 Insular_Celt:6DT3
0.09073196 German_MAEU_MA:ALH_3
0.09129658 German_MAEU_MA:STR_486
0.09408891 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.09547474 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.09577148 England_Saxon:I0157
0.09669308 German_MAEU_MA:AED_249
0.09954499 German_MAEU_MA:AED_106
0.10016960 German_MAEU_MA:STR_316
0.10020217 England_Saxon:I0769
0.10170881 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.10316144 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.10573953 England_Saxon:I0773
0.10963393 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
0.11106448 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021
0.11482234 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
0.11574609 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005
0.11898471 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035
0.12430136 Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44
0.13179651 Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43
0.14398118 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020
0.15509122 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006
196982.09372824 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Distance
196982.09372824 Canary_Islands_Guanche

[gixajo]

So they happened to be similar to us by pure concidence ? Do you at least know the people who colonized these islands came from morocco ? And that they faced two major migration movements ? These same canarians weren't involve in the trans-saharian slave trade nor did they met any arab, roman or phoenician (the only exception would be contacts with NAs during the roman era).


Anyway Let's wait for more samples and you'll see I was right.





Here again you show your ignorance : why do you think I keep repeating ancient carthaginians/punics were infact punicized north africans ? Read about roman north africa and you'll see that romans never massively settled in north africa same for arabs who mostly impacted libya and some parts of tunisia but not really Morocco. Also why would the thousands of Jews mixed with muslims ? These moriscos weren't enough but you can still found maghrebis with elevated iberian ancestry because of their morisco background.

Nothing strange here it's simply because you haven't read much about our history and think that we faced the same changes as your people or other med pops.

No.

[gixajo]

You can discuss for these euro components but 15% guanche (which were already similar to NAs like me) is totally in line with what the studies tell us. It doesn't seem too crazy

Yes and no.

[Grace O'Malley]

Do Celts exist in the modern world or are they a myth ? I think they have been absorbed into both the Germanic and Roman worlds. Also, Scots and the Irish speak Germanic tongues. Bretons in France speak a Celtic language but how many speak French , too ? How many Welsh speak Cymru more than English daily?I am not saying Celts were wiped out per se but that there seems to have been a lot ofmixing in modern times in Celtic lands.

Then there is the matter of genetics.Obviously, Celtic is a culture but I can't help but imagine the ancient Celts (at least in Ireland) were more genetically 'celtic' : :

I think that Irish, Scots, Welsh etc were more Bronze Age. The issue now is how much input other groups have made. It's obvious that some parts of England have had the most input from the Continent. From everything I've seen the Isles populations (incl. Ireland) were more Bronze Age. Celts came later but their impact might have been greater in the Saxon part of the UK. Talk of ironies. But with the ways things go it might all change with some new genomes and it might turn out Celts were pretty diverse anyway. There is just not enough "Celtic" genomes available but I don't think in the past the Irish were more genetically 'Celtic'. They were more Bronze Age which is what the studies that have been done show.

I'm looking forward to more information on the Medieval period. There have been no studies on this as of yet so that's the ones I'm interested in. All Isles populations have actually went slightly south genetically since the Bronze Age. This might be due to some Celts from the Continent.

[Anglo-Celtic]

I think that Irish, Scots, Welsh etc were more Bronze Age. The issue now is how much input other groups have made. It's obvious that some parts of England have had the most input from the Continent. From everything I've seen the Isles populations (incl. Ireland) were more Bronze Age. Celts came later but their impact might have been greater in the Saxon part of the UK. Talk of ironies. But with the ways things go it might all change with some new genomes and it might turn out Celts were pretty diverse anyway. There is just not enough "Celtic" genomes available but I don't think in the past the Irish were more genetically 'Celtic'. They were more Bronze Age which is what the studies that have been done show.

I'm looking forward to more information on the Medieval period. There have been no studies on this as of yet so that's the ones I'm interested in. All Isles populations have actually went slightly south genetically since the Bronze Age. This might be due to some Celts from the Continent.

There might be cultural and linguistic parallels to how "Hispanic" and "Latino" originated. What I mean is that one group had a profound impact on the other groups. The Celtic impact on the Isles was like the Spanish impact on Latin America. Native Americans "became Spanish", but they didn't fully share Spanish people's ethnicity. It was less dramatic in the case of the Celts. There was cultural and linguistic diffusion, but genetics weren't all that impacted like they were with the Mestizos. Maybe just a relatively tiny group of Continental Celts came to the Isles. Their ways were adopted by the residents.

[Grace O'Malley]

There might be cultural and linguistic parallels to how "Hispanic" and "Latino" originated. What I mean is that one group had a profound impact on the other groups. The Celtic impact on the Isles was like the Spanish impact on Latin America. Native Americans "became Spanish", but they didn't fully share Spanish people's ethnicity. It was less dramatic in the case of the Celts. There was cultural and linguistic diffusion, but genetics weren't all that impacted like they were with the Mestizos. Maybe just a relatively tiny group of Continental Celts came to the Isles. Their ways were adopted by the residents.

No one has been able to work it out yet. No one knows when Celtic language came to be spoken in Ireland and Britain. There is the possibility that it grew out of the Bell Beakers there who could have spoken some proto-Celtic or at least they spoke Indo-European. Some other people think it was a language that grew out of the Bell Beaker trading networks which were quite extensive. They would have all spoken some type of similar language that evolved into Celtic. Some people have some very interesting theories on it all. There is just so much that isn't known yet.

[Anglo-Celtic]

No one has been able to work it out yet. No one knows when Celtic language came to be spoken in Ireland and Britain. There is the possibility that it grew out of the Bell Beakers there who could have spoken some proto-Celtic or at least they spoke Indo-European. Some other people think it was a language that grew out of the Bell Beaker trading networks which were quite extensive. They would have all spoken some type of similar language that evolved into Celtic. Some people have some very interesting theories on it all. There is just so much that isn't known yet.

We may never know. The Bell Beaker theory makes sense. It also could be that people, who traded and travelled, spoke more than one language in order to communicate with people from other regions. Maybe it spread that way to some extent. Perhaps Celtic was like a Romance language in that there were varied versions of it from the same source. I understand that there were Brythonic and Goidelic lines, but what if there were dialects or mutations that linked the two? Call them missing links of language flow, a combination of facets of each language. That's a bit out there, but you wonder how language changed as it travelled from place to place.

[Anglo-Celtic]

No one has been able to work it out yet. No one knows when Celtic language came to be spoken in Ireland and Britain. There is the possibility that it grew out of the Bell Beakers there who could have spoken some proto-Celtic or at least they spoke Indo-European. Some other people think it was a language that grew out of the Bell Beaker trading networks which were quite extensive. They would have all spoken some type of similar language that evolved into Celtic. Some people have some very interesting theories on it all. There is just so much that isn't known yet.

We may never know. The Bell Beaker theory makes sense. It also could be that people, who traded and travelled, spoke more than one language in order to communicate with people from other regions. Maybe it spread that way to some extent. Perhaps Celtic was like a Romance language in that there were varied versions of it from the same source. I understand that there were Brythonic and Goidelic lines, but what if there were dialects or mutations that linked the two? Call them missing links of language flow, a combination of facets of each language. That's a bit out there, but you wonder how language changed as it travelled from place to place.