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Thread: Some arguments against the Critical Race Theory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayetooey View Post
    True, but the latter two groups you mentioned aren't "White" (so a counter point against CRT)
    I never said I wholly agreed with CRT. More crucially, I do think Islamic (Ottoman and Arab) imperialism was in many ways indeed comparable to Western imperialism.

    and out of the European groups mentioned, the greatest example of a modern day cultural colonialist is IMO France with its obsession with a "Francophone" empire.
    Well the Franc is still the official currency of several African nations, so yeah. But on the subject of empires: um hello, which language are we using as a supposedly 'neutral' medium here?

    But French identity is legally inclusive of race and its potential "Francophone empire" is anything but White.
    France may be all republican and egalitarian in rhetoric, but in practice race relations in France are quite probably the worst in Europe. (And to clarify, that isn't just the fault of the ethnic French either).

    Meanwhile Chinese have their cake and eat it, they spread economic and cultural hegemony, without needing to assimilate million of foreigners. I think you're mistaking China's opposition to assimilation as kindness when really its the opposite IMO (France, Britain, Spain etc open their borders to ex colonial subjects, China just strip nations of their resources and keep their own country as pure as possible). There's no benefit to China teaching Africans Mandarin, that's why they don't do it, but when it IS in Chinas benefit to assimilate other regions culturally (Tibet, Xinjiang) they do it.
    Post-war immigration to Europe from its ex-colonies has been mostly about obtaining cheap(er) labour. You're being very naive if you believe all the bluster from those who claim that "diversity is a good thing in itself" and "isn't it cool to have all these different restaurants and festivals" etc etc. And whether the Chinese oppose assimilation due to kindness or sheer pragmatism is to an extent a moot point - one way or the other, its trading partners/client states find them less overbearing and imposing than the West and are happier as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post


    Post-war immigration to Europe from its ex-colonies has been mostly about obtaining cheap(er) labour. You're being very naive if you believe all the bluster from those who claim that "diversity is a good thing in itself" and "isn't it cool to have all these different restaurants and festivals" etc etc. And whether the Chinese oppose assimilation due to kindness or sheer pragmatism is to an extent a moot point - one way or the other, its trading partners/client states find them less overbearing and imposing than the West and are happier as a result.
    And countries/territories which have historical bad blood with China (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc) prefer the West to China, you can't expect your ex to talk good about you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayetooey View Post
    And countries/territories which have historical bad blood with China (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc) prefer the West to China, you can't expect your ex to talk good about you.
    Funny how "pan-Asianism" isn't really a force like "pan-Europeanism" claims to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    Funny how "pan-Asianism" isn't really a force like "pan-Europeanism" claims to be.
    China is too large and dominant for such a concept I guess, not to mention the large political and economic differences between the various nations. I oppose pan-Europeanism and the EU but there's at least shared qualities between EU nations (liberal economics, democracy, etc).

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    I would say CRT theory is Hegelian or inverted Hegelianism so this counts as a critique of CRT :

    ON MEN OF LEARNING.

    When one sees the number and variety of institutions which exist for the purposes of education, and the vast throng of scholars and masters, one might fancy the human race to be very much concerned about truth and wisdom. But here, too, appearances are deceptive. The masters teach in order to gain money, and strive, not after wisdom, but the outward show and reputation of it; and the scholars learn, not for the sake of knowledge and insight, but to be able to chatter and give themselves airs. Every thirty years a new race comes into the world—a youngster that knows nothing about anything, and after summarily devouring in all haste the results of human knowledge as they have been accumulated for thousands of years, aspires to be thought cleverer than the whole of the past. For this purpose he goes to the University, and takes to reading books—new books, as being of his own age and standing. Everything he reads must be briefly put, must be new! he is new himself. Then he falls to and criticises. And here I am not taking the slightest account of studies pursued for the sole object of making a living.

    Students, and learned persons of all sorts and every age, aim as a rule at acquiring information rather than insight. They pique themselves upon knowing about everything—stones, plants, battles, experiments, and all the books in existence. It never occurs to them that information is only a means of insight, and in itself of little or no value; that it is his way of thinking that makes a man a philosopher. When I hear of these portents of learning and their imposing erudition, I sometimes say to myself: Ah, how little they must have had to think about, to have been able to read so much! And when I actually find it reported of the elder Pliny that he was continually reading or being read to, at table, on a journey, or in his bath, the question forces itself upon my mind, whether the man was so very lacking in thought of his own that he had to have alien thought incessantly instilled into him; as though he were a consumptive patient taking jellies to keep himself alive. And neither his undiscerning credulity nor his inexpressibly repulsive and barely intelligible style—which seems like of a man taking notes, and very economical of paper—is of a kind to give me a high opinion of his power of independent thought.

    We have seen that much reading and learning is prejudicial to thinking for oneself; and, in the same way, through much writing and teaching, a man loses the habit of being quite clear, and therefore thorough, in regard to the things he knows and understands; simply because he has left himself no time to acquire clearness or thoroughness. And so, when clear knowledge fails him in his utterances, he is forced to fill out the gaps with words and phrases. It is this, and not the dryness of the subject-matter, that makes most books such tedious reading. There is a saying that a good cook can make a palatable dish even out of an old shoe; and a good writer can make the dryest things interesting.

    With by far the largest number of learned men, knowledge is a means, not an end. That is why they will never achieve any great work; because, to do that, he who pursues knowledge must pursue it as an end, and treat everything else, even existence itself, as only a means. For everything which a man fails to pursue for its own sake is but half-pursued; and true excellence, no matter in what sphere, can be attained only where the work has been produced for its own sake alone, and not as a means to further ends.

    And so, too, no one will ever succeed in doing anything really great and original in the way of thought, who does not seek to acquire knowledge for himself, and, making this the immediate object of his studies, decline to trouble himself about the knowledge of others. But the average man of learning studies for the purpose of being able to teach and write. His head is like a stomach and intestines which let the food pass through them undigested. That is just why his teaching and writing is of so little use. For it is not upon undigested refuse that people can be nourished, but solely upon the milk which secretes from the very blood itself.

    The wig is the appropriate symbol of the man of learning, pure and simple. It adorns the head with a copious quantity of false hair, in lack of one's own: just as erudition means endowing it with a great mass of alien thought. This, to be sure, does not clothe the head so well and naturally, nor is it so generally useful, nor so suited for all purposes, nor so firmly rooted; nor when alien thought is used up, can it be immediately replaced by more from the same source, as is the case with that which springs from soil of one's own. So we find Sterne, in his Tristram Shandy, boldly asserting that an ounce of a man's own wit is worth a ton of other people's.

    And in fact the most profound erudition is no more akin to genius than a collection of dried plants in like Nature, with its constant flow of new life, ever fresh, ever young, ever changing. There are no two things more opposed than the childish naïveté of an ancient author and the learning of his commentator.

    Dilettanti, dilettanti! This is the slighting way in which those who pursue any branch of art or learning for the love and enjoyment of the thing,—per il loro diletto, are spoken of by those who have taken it up for the sake of gain, attracted solely by the prospect of money. This contempt of theirs comes from the base belief that no man will seriously devote himself to a subject, unless he is spurred on to it by want, hunger, or else some form of greed. The public is of the same way of thinking; and hence its general respect for professionals and its distrust of dilettanti. But the truth is that the dilettante treats his subject as an end, whereas the professional, pure and simple, treats it merely as a means. He alone will be really in earnest about a matter, who has a direct interest therein, takes to it because he likes it, and pursues it con amore. It is these, and not hirelings, that have always done the greatest work.

    In the republic of letters it is as in other republics; favor is shown to the plain man—he who goes his way in silence and does not set up to be cleverer than others. But the abnormal man is looked upon as threatening danger; people band together against him, and have, oh! such a majority on their side.

    The condition of this republic is much like that of a small State in America, where every man is intent only upon his own advantage, and seeks reputation and power for himself, quite heedless of the general weal, which then goes to ruin. So it is in the republic of letters; it is himself, and himself alone, that a man puts forward, because he wants to gain fame. The only thing in which all agree is in trying to keep down a really eminent man, if he should chance to show himself, as one who would be a common peril. From this it is easy to see how it fares with knowledge as a whole.

    Between professors and independent men of learning there has always been from of old a certain antagonism, which may perhaps be likened to that existing been dogs and wolves. In virtue of their position, professors enjoy great facilities for becoming known to their contemporaries. Contrarily, independent men of learning enjoy, by their position, great facilities for becoming known to posterity; to which it is necessary that, amongst other and much rarer gifts, a man should have a certain leisure and freedom. As mankind takes a long time in finding out on whom to bestow its attention, they may both work together side by side.

    He who holds a professorship may be said to receive his food in the stall; and this is the best way with ruminant animals. But he who finds his food for himself at the hands of Nature is better off in the open field.

    Of human knowledge as a whole and in every branch of it, by far the largest part exists nowhere but on paper,—I mean, in books, that paper memory of mankind. Only a small part of it is at any given period really active in the minds of particular persons. This is due, in the main, to the brevity and uncertainty of life; but it also comes from the fact that men are lazy and bent on pleasure. Every generation attains, on its hasty passage through existence, just so much of human knowledge as it needs, and then soon disappears. Most men of learning are very superficial. Then follows a new generation, full of hope, but ignorant, and with everything to learn from the beginning. It seizes, in its turn, just so much as it can grasp or find useful on its brief journey and then too goes its way. How badly it would fare with human knowledge if it were not for the art of writing and printing! This it is that makes libraries the only sure and lasting memory of the human race, for its individual members have all of them but a very limited and imperfect one. Hence most men of learning as are loth to have their knowledge examined as merchants to lay bare their books.

    Human knowledge extends on all sides farther than the eye can reach; and of that which would be generally worth knowing, no one man can possess even the thousandth part.

    All branches of learning have thus been so much enlarged that he who would "do something" has to pursue no more than one subject and disregard all others. In his own subject he will then, it is true, be superior to the vulgar; but in all else he will belong to it. If we add to this that neglect of the ancient languages, which is now-a-days on the increase and is doing away with all general education in the humanities—for a mere smattering of Latin and Greek is of no use—we shall come to have men of learning who outside their own subject display an ignorance truly bovine.

    An exclusive specialist of this kind stands on a par with a workman in a factory, whose whole life is spent in making one particular kind of screw, or catch, or handle, for some particular instrument or machine, in which, indeed, he attains incredible dexterity. The specialist may also be likened to a man who lives in his own house and never leaves it. There he is perfectly familiar with everything, every little step, corner, or board; much as Quasimodo in Victor Hugo's Nôtre Dame knows the cathedral; but outside it, all is strange and unknown.

    For true culture in the humanities it is absolutely necessary that a man should be many-sided and take large views; and for a man of learning in the higher sense of the word, an extensive acquaintance with history is needful. He, however, who wishes to be a complete philosopher, must gather into his head the remotest ends of human knowledge: for where else could they ever come together?

    It is precisely minds of the first order that will never be specialists. For their very nature is to make the whole of existence their problem; and this is a subject upon which they will every one of them in some form provide mankind with a new revelation. For he alone can deserve the name of genius who takes the All, the Essential, the Universal, for the theme of his achievements; not he who spends his life in explaining some special relation of things one to another.--Arthur Schopenhauer

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    "I moved out of the house of the scholars, and I even slammed the door behind me. Too long did my soul sit hungry at their table; I am not, as they are, trained to pursue understanding as a kind of nut-cracking....I am too hot and burned by my own thoughts: often it almost takes my breath away...but they sit coolly in the cool shade: they want in all things to be mere spectators and are wary of sitting where the sun burns down upon the steps. Like those who stand in the street and gape at the people passing by, they too wait and gape at thoughts that others have had"--Nietzsche "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"

    Sent from my 5007W using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayetooey View Post
    China is too large and dominant for such a concept I guess, not to mention the large political and economic differences between the various nations. I oppose pan-Europeanism and the EU but there's at least shared qualities between EU nations (liberal economics, democracy, etc).
    Its not even that. They are just ethno nationalists with a hatred of japan from ww2. The government of china still runs anti japanese sentiments in their media from time to time i believe

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    I think it is a mix of both and the truth is inbetween. Because humans are 99% the same and succesfully always and still mix with eatch other thats why you need to draw the lines somewhere maybe with a law like in southafrica or jim crow, then you have the experience aspect, the genetic aspect, the looks aspect etc. if you mix all of these you get somehwere half way there that the truth is inbetween.

    Just check this add, those people have the looks and experience of white persons yet they are not genetically 100% white and are proud that they found something exotic, yet their experience is white and they get mocked for now saying they are not 100% white


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    Quote Originally Posted by Supercomputer View Post
    I'm just going to focus on small part of the CRT, which I think is the most important and which bother me the most.

    CRT is among other things based on the following premises:
    - That Whiteness is artificial
    - That Whiteness is oppressive
    So in short, they say it's an artificial idea that oppresses people. Those premises are the main reason why increasing number of intellectuals today buy into the idea that so called "Whiteness" should be abolished
    So, to intellectually defeat it, you need to show people it's main premises are wrong mainly that Whiteness ISN'T artificial and that it ISN'T oppressive.
    I have not researched exactly what is critical race theory properly. I just understand what people say against about it and what an sjw talking point is.

    The fallacy I see with what I think i understand is that we burden the sins of others on to others that haven't commited those sins.



    1.)Show them that "Whiteness" is NOT an artificial construct
    - Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians. There is also a common European culture and history going back to Greece and Rome as well as common religion.

    - Remind them that "Whiteness" would exist even if there was no slavery or colonialism. One of the most annoying ideas floating in the left wing circles is this idea that "race and White people was/were invented in order to justify slavery and colonialism. This is demonstrably false. Even if Europeans never settled in the New World, never practised slavery and always minded their own business, as the world eventually became globalized, so called Whiteness or some level of pan European identity would sooner or later emerge at least to some extent. A British person would still look at a Dutchman and clearly see he is more similar to him both physically as well as culturally than someone from Korea, Nigeria or the Americas.
    Whiteness is somewhat a construct still. Because mixed people can still pass for white and some non white people can. Like certain indians and middle easterners. Even if genetically they arent european. Meanwhile thejr actual biological relative, like a sibling could be brown or more brown.
    But yes DNA is real. But DNA can be funny also.
    If they never practiced slavery or went to the new world they would have still been killing each other briefly unite to fight against muslims again. That was what they were doing before slavery became racialized in europe and in the Americas.
    A dutchman would probably hate his neighbor maybe if they have been in several wars before and had his villages and family murdered by the neighboring state. Today in our time has more relative peaceful times than back then. We know this because this was an issue in the balkans actually. The average young brit is probably more interested in asian anime and video games from sony japan than what dutch culture is about.

    She almost looks european except the nose.

    http://<a href="https://youtu.be/bJq...JqmXGARs4s</a>
    [video]



    2.) Debunk the idea that Whiteness is oppressive
    Remind them that:
    - Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.
    - Europe was victim of colonialism as much as it was the perpetrator
    - Slavery was universal to everyone and had nothing to do with race
    - Europeans were the victims of non White slavery
    No one is inherently oppressive just because of their race.

    But the translantic slave trade was pretty big.

    Past figures that happened to be white commited those crimes.
    Its an unfortunate consequence that you are judged for it since you haven't commited that.


    Slavery can happen to anyone of any demographic by any demographic.

    Mostly europeans were colonizing each other but few instances like moors, turks persians and huns yes.

    3.) Remind them that Whites are the least racist race in the world.
    Show them that Whites treat racial minorities better than anyone else. Whites will not only allow large burdensome racial minorities to live in their countries, they will actually give them privileges like Affirmative action and it's European equivalents as well as diversity quotas. But not only that; they will go a step further and demonize themselves and teach totally one sided, exaggerated and de-contextualized narratives of history just to attempt to minimize the natural resentment against minorities that live in their countries at their expense. Chinese would never do that. Arabs would never do that. Indians would never do that. Only White people. Yet how are they thanked? By being demonized and attacked as the only perpetrators of racism.
    I am not sure if whites are the least racists in the world.
    But if you mean by laws, yes. Probably. Its why I would rather live in a western country than china. Japan has much more strict policy of for citizenship. But japanese seem like very modest people.
    3. Show them that race is NOT just a social construct

    The idea that race is just a social construct stems from several logical fallacies namely the continuum fallacy as well as deconstructionist fallacy. If race is a social construct then so are colors. You can philosophically deconstruct any concept you want. A species could also be seen as a social construct. So can a chair.
    Race is a social construct.
    But some people might treat you differently and that is real.

    Colors are real. They are physical properties of how we percieve light. But thats how about it.

    4. Remind them that racism would exist even if there would be no White people. Leftists believe racism is the greatest evil in the world. Because of very one sided narratives of history the first association of "racism" is racism of Whites against Blacks or non Whites. However racism ie tribalism is universal to all human races and even if White people were truly bread out of existence, racism would still exist. For example the only reason tensions between Blacks and Hispanics in the United States aren't higher is because they both still politically align under the same ideology against White people.
    Racism is just a stupid form if tribalism.
    Tribalism really has to do with your actual tribe or clan or ethnic group by a larger extension. Not because anyone just looks similar to you.

    Racism would still exist today, I agree.
    The transalantic slave trade just really facilitated that notion and made the issue a big topic.

    5. And finally even if Whiteness was really artificial and it really oppressed people (which it isn't and it doesn't) the solution would not be to abolish White people. The solution would be just to leave White people alone and live in countries where White people can't oppress you. Separation is not oppression. In fact, separation is the opposite of oppression. (All groups that were oppressed throughout history sought secession from their oppressors). Take Japaneseness for example. Is it a social construct? Yes (all ethnic groups are social constructs) Has it historically oppressed people? Yes. Does it oppress people today? Yes. There are Koreans and Chinese living in Japan and they are discriminated against by Japanese. Yet does anyone push for so called Japaneseness to be abolished? No. If you don't want to be oppressed by Japanese, don't live in Japan. The same with so called Whiteness. If you don't want to be "oppressed" by Whites, don't live among Whites.
    Seperation infringing on other peoples rights if you enforce that. Particularly if you force others to seperate. But there is also issues of telling others where they can and cannot live. I mean if you managed to find some peice of land where you can create a independant state where you are seperate. Its whatever I guess but really most people who believe in segregation dont honestly believe this in a honest way. They really would just like to have the others kind of kicked out or killed off. Or have a society where they are "seperate" but with the others in their society as some kind of lesser caste that benefits them in some way.

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