do you see ashkenazi jews as white?

[SouthDutch7991]

That's a narrative that is notably promoted by Judaism. But as the paper on the Erfurt Jews demonstrates, you can also model Ashkenazi Jews as only abt. 10% Levantine if you use Southern Italian instead of Northern Italian (which is also historically more in line with where early Jews are recorded to have lived).

Yeah I've been doing a lot more close looking at them, genetically, to be honest I'm of the opinion now that there's a lot of influence to see Jew as "non-european" in whole or in part, from many different political angles ( modern white nationalism, zionism, minority-obsessed political correctness ) but frankly I'd say from actually looking at their Ancestry myself, they're too similar to other modern and even ancient europeans to be differentiated. Using samples from Tuscany to represent "pure" Italians, Samaritans for the levant and tunisians for north africa, I'd say WESTERN Ashkenazi are about 55-60% southern European on average and around 35-40% Levant with an additional 5% either North African or a proxy for some ancestry from peninsular Arabs. Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe are about 90% this "basal Ashkenazi" component, plus around 10% Eastern European, making them roughly 60-65% European and about 30-35% Levant. North African may be around 3-5% in these eastern Ashkenazi.









Sicilians I would say are much more Italian than frequently stated, around 75% and the remaining a similar ratio of levant to north african as in Ashkenazi. Ashkenazi as well as Sephardic Jews cluster with other mediterranean islanders and all of them fall in the southernmost european cline. In fact when looking at Ashkenazi in terms of Farmer/Steppe/HG, we find that they get a lot of farmer-like ancestry from the levant and north african that makes them appear something like 80-90% Archaic European!. This make sense when you consider that individuals with a quarter Ashkenazi or less will simply plot inside of europe on every scale and appear, genetically, composed entirely of Farmer/Steppe/HG

That's not to say Ashkenazi are NOT getting ancestry from the Levant, but their Levant ancestry carries archaic components with it that are too similar to Archaic Europeans to be differentiated once mixed in heavily with Europeans of modern stock and no historical Levant ancestry.

Here as an example, I ran myself and a synthetic coordinate composed of 1/4 Ashkenazi and 3/4 Scottish+Irish against Davidskis standard ancient calculator:

Target: 3/4Irish+1/4Ashkenazi_Scaled
Distance: 0.0344% / 0.03443885
46.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
43.9 TUR_Barcin_N
9.2 WHG
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: SouthDutch7991_Scaled
Distance: 0.0399% / 0.03993313
44.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.6 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 WHG



You can see that Anatolian Farmer-like ancestry from the Levant and North Africa have effectively disappeared. Looking at it from a purely unknown point of view you would not be able to tell this was someone with Ashkenazi ancestry from this alone, it could be anyone from the northern Balkans.

I think we tend to see Ashkenazi as being "other" and so when we see their ancestry from outside europe place heavy emphasis on it, despite the fact that many native europeans have significant non-middle-eastern "middle-east-like" ancestry and that in terms of basic components, an Ashkenazi is a Southern European. Politics and historical beefs have clouded our view on them. Even though, to me, it initially seemed obvious that Jews were just "white", I came to want to see them otherwise after being around political groups on both sides of the debate long enough. It's funny, because now neither Pro-Jews nor Anti-Jews wish to call Jews "white" except for people who dislike Jews for the whole Zionism thing in Israel.

[rothaer]

Yeah I've been doing a lot more close looking at them, genetically, to be honest I'm of the opinion now that there's a lot of influence to see Jew as "non-european" in whole or in part, from many different political angles ( modern white nationalism, zionism, minority-obsessed political correctness ) but frankly I'd say from actually looking at their Ancestry myself, they're too similar to other modern and even ancient europeans to be differentiated. Using samples from Tuscany to represent "pure" Italians, Samaritans for the levant and tunisians for north africa, I'd say WESTERN Ashkenazi are about 55-60% southern European on average and around 35-40% Levant with an additional 5% either North African or a proxy for some ancestry from peninsular Arabs. Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe are about 90% this "basal Ashkenazi" component, plus around 10% Eastern European, making them roughly 60-65% European and about 30-35% Levant. North African may be around 3-5% in these eastern Ashkenazi.









Sicilians I would say are much more Italian than frequently stated, around 75% and the remaining a similar ratio of levant to north african as in Ashkenazi. Ashkenazi as well as Sephardic Jews cluster with other mediterranean islanders and all of them fall in the southernmost european cline. In fact when looking at Ashkenazi in terms of Farmer/Steppe/HG, we find that they get a lot of farmer-like ancestry from the levant and north african that makes them appear something like 80-90% Archaic European!. This make sense when you consider that individuals with a quarter Ashkenazi or less will simply plot inside of europe on every scale and appear, genetically, composed entirely of Farmer/Steppe/HG

That's not to say Ashkenazi are NOT getting ancestry from the Levant, but their Levant ancestry carries archaic components with it that are too similar to Archaic Europeans to be differentiated once mixed in heavily with Europeans of modern stock and no historical Levant ancestry.

Here as an example, I ran myself and a synthetic coordinate composed of 1/4 Ashkenazi and 3/4 Scottish+Irish against Davidskis standard ancient calculator:

Target: 3/4Irish+1/4Ashkenazi_Scaled
Distance: 0.0344% / 0.03443885
46.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
43.9 TUR_Barcin_N
9.2 WHG
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: SouthDutch7991_Scaled
Distance: 0.0399% / 0.03993313
44.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.6 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 WHG



You can see that Anatolian Farmer-like ancestry from the Levant and North Africa have effectively disappeared. Looking at it from a purely unknown point of view you would not be able to tell this was someone with Ashkenazi ancestry from this alone, it could be anyone from the northern Balkans.

I think we tend to see Ashkenazi as being "other" and so when we see their ancestry from outside europe place heavy emphasis on it, despite the fact that many native europeans have significant non-middle-eastern "middle-east-like" ancestry and that in terms of basic components, an Ashkenazi is a Southern European. Politics and historical beefs have clouded our view on them. Even though, to me, it initially seemed obvious that Jews were just "white", I came to want to see them otherwise after being around political groups on both sides of the debate long enough. It's funny, because now neither Pro-Jews nor Anti-Jews wish to call Jews "white" except for people who dislike Jews for the whole Zionism thing in Israel.

A lot of interesting own opinions and I agree to much of this.

As for the "White" question of the thread I did not yet comment on it, because I felt too undecided for that. I wrote it in some other thread: In Germany (and many parts of Europe) there is hardly any viewing of people in a "White" or non-White aspect. There is primarily an ethnic view like this: You can be German or non-German. That's the biggest difference. F. i. Germans feel pretty different - not to say alienated - both by Poles and French, so two big neighbours. A higher "alienness class" are "Mediterraneans" which means roughly Portuguese, Spanianrds, Italians and Greeks. Next level alienness class are Turks, Caucasians (Caucasus people) and Iranians. Next Level are Arabs (Arab speakers). And so on. Somewhere far away you have exotics like Gypsies, Indians, Chinese and Negros. So where exatly "White" ends is no aspect and I don't even know what exactly "White" should mean. Now, as for Ashkenazi Jews (AJ) I'd consider them in the "alienness level" of Southern Italians and Greeks.

Considering the political aspects of AJ it imo leads to a very ambigous result in matter of alienness. Some aspects, namely concerning the religion, ethics and psychology are more alien, while other aspects as economics and scientifical development level are even core of what can be considered "Europeanness" in the world.

As for the AJ genetics, they are in line with that Greek / Southern Italian alienness comparison.

In your modelling you use Tuscan for "true Italian" which you equal with Southern European and then come to the conclsuion that Sicilians are 3/4 "Southern Europeans". However, we will both be aware of and agree on that if you use Sicilian or Greek for "Southern European", AJ will immediately be much more "Southern European" and respectively less "Middle Eastern".

To my observation after a lot of experimenting we do have a cline of "wogginess" from Celtic La Tène to Northen Italian/Pre Slavic Balkan to Eastern Mediterranean. So these three mentioned "components" do all contain the same kind of "wog", just in different concentrations. There's no principal difference like there is between SSA, Chinese and European etc. Hence I agree with emphasis on your statement that minority AJ contributions become essentially invisible as particulary AJ in modelling and the testee just gets more southern / woggy by that and that such mixtures always score somewhere within the European range and you then f. i. as a Northern European can become "Balkan" without exhibiting anything that is alien to Europe.

[CordedWhelp]

I see AJ’s as periphery white, racially. Additionally, I don’t see lightly pigmented members of non-European groups as “suddenly white”....a light Afghani to me is genomically the same as most others within their ethnos.

[Lobster]

Sure, I do. Many, if not majority of them look very white to me

[Kenshiro]

The boy below and in the middle has one of the most beautiful faces I have ever seen in my life

[tita]

I read they was genetically identical to italians so no they are not white

[Kenshiro]

I read they was genetically identical to italians so no they are not white

Only extremely south (some part of Sicily and Calabria and Malta) but phenotype are not Genotype, we Italians are average mediterranean European people, like Greeks, Jews average people are a mix of White and Middle East, in the Italy the most common phenotype are Dinaro-med, Jews most common phenotype are a mix between some sort of White phenotype (Borreby-Alpinoid etc.) and Middle Eastern phenotype, I agree that neither of the two peoples is white, but honestly the only peoples that I consider white are the Nordic ones, already a Frenchman or a Romanian would be non-white

[Kenshiro]

Yeah I've been doing a lot more close looking at them, genetically, to be honest I'm of the opinion now that there's a lot of influence to see Jew as "non-european" in whole or in part, from many different political angles ( modern white nationalism, zionism, minority-obsessed political correctness ) but frankly I'd say from actually looking at their Ancestry myself, they're too similar to other modern and even ancient europeans to be differentiated. Using samples from Tuscany to represent "pure" Italians, Samaritans for the levant and tunisians for north africa, I'd say WESTERN Ashkenazi are about 55-60% southern European on average and around 35-40% Levant with an additional 5% either North African or a proxy for some ancestry from peninsular Arabs. Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe are about 90% this "basal Ashkenazi" component, plus around 10% Eastern European, making them roughly 60-65% European and about 30-35% Levant. North African may be around 3-5% in these eastern Ashkenazi.









Sicilians I would say are much more Italian than frequently stated, around 75% and the remaining a similar ratio of levant to north african as in Ashkenazi. Ashkenazi as well as Sephardic Jews cluster with other mediterranean islanders and all of them fall in the southernmost european cline. In fact when looking at Ashkenazi in terms of Farmer/Steppe/HG, we find that they get a lot of farmer-like ancestry from the levant and north african that makes them appear something like 80-90% Archaic European!. This make sense when you consider that individuals with a quarter Ashkenazi or less will simply plot inside of europe on every scale and appear, genetically, composed entirely of Farmer/Steppe/HG

That's not to say Ashkenazi are NOT getting ancestry from the Levant, but their Levant ancestry carries archaic components with it that are too similar to Archaic Europeans to be differentiated once mixed in heavily with Europeans of modern stock and no historical Levant ancestry.

Here as an example, I ran myself and a synthetic coordinate composed of 1/4 Ashkenazi and 3/4 Scottish+Irish against Davidskis standard ancient calculator:

Target: 3/4Irish+1/4Ashkenazi_Scaled
Distance: 0.0344% / 0.03443885
46.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
43.9 TUR_Barcin_N
9.2 WHG
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: SouthDutch7991_Scaled
Distance: 0.0399% / 0.03993313
44.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.6 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 WHG



You can see that Anatolian Farmer-like ancestry from the Levant and North Africa have effectively disappeared. Looking at it from a purely unknown point of view you would not be able to tell this was someone with Ashkenazi ancestry from this alone, it could be anyone from the northern Balkans.

I think we tend to see Ashkenazi as being "other" and so when we see their ancestry from outside europe place heavy emphasis on it, despite the fact that many native europeans have significant non-middle-eastern "middle-east-like" ancestry and that in terms of basic components, an Ashkenazi is a Southern European. Politics and historical beefs have clouded our view on them. Even though, to me, it initially seemed obvious that Jews were just "white", I came to want to see them otherwise after being around political groups on both sides of the debate long enough. It's funny, because now neither Pro-Jews nor Anti-Jews wish to call Jews "white" except for people who dislike Jews for the whole Zionism thing in Israel.

That East Europe in Sicily are like a Proxy for Germanic?

[Etelfrido]

Only extremely south (some part of Sicily and Calabria and Malta) but phenotype are not Genotype, we Italians are average mediterranean European people, like Greeks, Jews average people are a mix of White and Middle East, in the Italy the most common phenotype are Dinaro-med, Jews most common phenotype are a mix between some sort of White phenotype (Borreby-Alpinoid etc.) and Middle Eastern phenotype, I agree that neither of the two peoples is white, but honestly the only peoples that I consider white are the Nordic ones, already a Frenchman or a Romanian would be non-white

That's nuts and tita's a troll.