Tooting Carmen's list of relatively benign dictators

[alnortedelsur]

Well regardless of all the other policies of COPEI and AD, do you think the nationalisation of Venezuela's oil industry was a good thing in itself or not? While in practice there was a lot of corruption, at least in theory it enabled more local control and revenue from the oil industry.

All I can say is that ironically, Venezuela got more benefits from the oil industry before the aforementioned "nationalization" than after it, when as you said, there were too much corruption, and there were a very poor management of the revenues of the oil industry in favor of the country.

During Perez Jimenez government, even though the oil industry was in the hands of foreign companies, those foreign companies were obliged to pay royalties to the Venezuelan state, and with the money of those royalties, Perez Jimenez inverted that money into major infrastructure works, like highways, Avenues, hospitals, ports, industrial plants, etc., with the consequent job positions that the construction of these infrastructures entailed.

And during his only 10 years government (4 years of military juntas, and 6 years presided only by him), there were built more infrastructures than during all the 40 years of the deficient and corrupt democratic period between his fall and the advent of the chavista revolution

[Tooting Carmen]

All I can say is that ironically, Venezuela got more benefits from the oil industry before the aforementioned "nationalization" than after it, when as you said, there were too much corruption, and there were a very poor management of the revenues of the oil industry in favor of the country.

During Perez Jimenez government, even though the oil industry was in the hands of foreign companies, those foreign companies were obliged to pay royalties to the Venezuelan state, and with the money of those royalties, Perez Jimenez inverted that money into major infrastructure works, like highways, Avenues, hospitals, ports, industrial plants, etc., with the consequent job positions that the construction of these infrastructures entailed.

And during his only 10 years government (4 years of military juntas, and 6 years presided only by him), there were built more infrastructures than during all the 40 years of the deficient and corrupt democratic period between his fall and the advent of the chavista revolution

Even compared to the swinging 70's?

[alnortedelsur]

Even compared to the swinging 70's?

During the 70s there were a lot of prosperity and economic activity, but also a lot of corruption. The fall of Perez Jimenez (who put the country in the top of Latin America) was still very recent, so the country still felt the impulse of the prosperity and well being that came from Perez Jimenez government, and the leftist guerrillas were defeat during the 60s and very early 70s (with the dirty state terrorism methods, including tortures, forced disappearances, etc., we already talked about in other threads), resulting in a posterior political stability that also helped to that happy and prosperous atmosphere of the 70s.

[Cristiano viejo]

Fidel Castro, Cuba
Particularly in the context of this forum, this is perhaps the most controversial of the list. Nevertheless, human rights abuses under him were on a far smaller scale compared to both most other Communist regimes and many Latin American military regimes. Furthermore, the improvements in health, education, science and sport were enormous, and certainly he rescued Cuba from the incredible corruption and decadence of the Batista period.

how, putting the Cubans in a bigger incredible corruption and decadence??

[Tooting Carmen]

how, putting the Cubans in a bigger incredible corruption and decadence??

Compare Cuba to other countries in the Americas when it comes to corruption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrup...ceptions_Index

And HDI:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...elopment_Index

While still clearly part of the usual Third World spectrum, it is not as bad as many.

[Cristiano viejo]

Compare Cuba to other countries in the Americas when it comes to corruption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrup...ceptions_Index

And HDI:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...elopment_Index

While still clearly part of the usual Third World spectrum, it is not as bad as many.

I dont need to compare anything. You made a clear (AND FALSE) claim, that Castro rescued Cuba from corruption and decadence. How did it he, tell me? because his Cuba has been more corrupt and decadent than ever as we say in Spain, they got out from Guatelamala and arrived to Guatepeor

I know you play the lefty boy here, lightwashing the communist-socialist-marxist regimes, most of times with childish arguments that also would apply muuuuch more for Franco or Hitler about real interests (economy, quality of life, citizen security, jobs,etc) and that conveniently you keep silence... but enough is enough

[Tooting Carmen]

I dont need to compare anything. You made a clear (AND FALSE) claim, that Castro rescued Cuba from corruption and decadence. How did it he, tell me? because his Cuba has been more corrupt and decadent than ever as we say in Spain, they got out from Guatelamala and arrived to Guatepeor

I know you play the lefty boy here, lightwashing the communist-socialist-marxist regimes, most of times with childish arguments that also would apply muuuuch more for Franco or Hitler about real interests (economy, quality of life, citizen security, jobs,etc) and that conveniently you keep silence... but enough is enough

Not all Communist regimes are the same. I myself have vehemently criticised the brutal tyrannies of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Mengistu in particular (earlier in this thread, Mortimer defended Stalin, though I am not sure if he was joking or serious). For that matter, I also recognise that not all Fascist/far right regimes are the same - there is a world of difference between the Falangism as practiced by Salazar (and even Franco, at least in the latter part of his regime) and the wholesale psychopathy of Nazi Germany.

[Tooting Carmen]

As for the very specific case of Cuba, it is well-known that Batista allowed the Mafia to run casinos, hotels and even brothels in the country; at least 20,000 people were killed by the secret police; and while some socioeconomic indicators looked good on paper, illiteracy and lack of access to healthcare were rampant, especially in rural areas.

[Cristiano viejo]

Not all Communist regimes are the same. I myself have vehemently criticised the brutal tyrannies of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Mengistu in particular (earlier in this thread, Mortimer defended Stalin, though I am not sure if he was joking or serious). For that matter, I also recognise that not all Fascist/far right regimes are the same - there is a world of difference between the Falangism as practiced by Salazar (and even Franco, at least in the latter part of his regime) and the wholesale psychopathy of Nazi Germany.

If you rescue certain good things about the Castro dictatorship, to sound fair, equitative and impartial, you should say the same things about Hitler or Franco... but you never do it, so you sound unfair, partial and hypocrite.

[Andullero]

I dont need to compare anything. You made a clear (AND FALSE) claim, that Castro rescued Cuba from corruption and decadence. How did it he, tell me? because his Cuba has been more corrupt and decadent than ever as we say in Spain, they got out from Guatelamala and arrived to Guatepeor

To me the biggest charge is the demographic death spiral, on the same level currently plaguing European countries, and which will leave it wide open to ethnic replacing practices once their planters in other lands get to return.