Tooting Carmen's list of relatively benign dictators

[Adrianv2]

Yes I know the concept of a 'benign dictator' might sound oxymoronic, but my definition is one who commits relatively small-scale human rights abuses, which are vastly outweighed by social and economic achievements.

Antonio da Oliveira Salazar, Portugal
Before his rise to power, Portugal had by some distance the worst literacy rate in Western Europe, and its currency collapsed something like three times in fifteen years. However, after rising to the top in a military regime which originally appointed him Minister for the Economy, he stabilised the country's finances and instigated a large schoolbuilding and literacy campaign which proved highly successful. While there were cases of dissident students and intellectuals being imprisoned, in comparison to many other dictatorships in Europe - notably in neighbouring Spain - it was much milder.

Josep Broz Tito, Yugoslavia
Following his singlehanded victory in WWII (in the sense the Soviets never arrived), he instigated a relatively decentralised and open socialist system based largely on communal farms and workers' councils, and kept Yugoslavia out of the Warsaw Pact and the submissiveness towards the USSR which accordingly went with it. Whatever his periodically repressive actions, he managed to keep this most ethnically divided and unstable part of Europe peaceful and united.

Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore
Transformed this Chinese enclave city-state from an impoverished, decadent, drug-ridden, crime-ridden hellhole into an extremely prosperous, lawful and orderly state. His economic policies combined widespread state ownership with low levels of regulation and openness to foreign investment, and although his laws regarding things like drink-driving, litter and gum dropping might seem draconian, it cannot be denied that Singapore nowadays is a bastion of cleanliness, order and civic-mindedness.

Julius Nyerere, Tanzania
Unlike many African dictators, he lived simply and did not take one penny that wasn't his. To varying degrees of success, he tried to introduce a kind of rural socialism to Tanzania, and kept the country peaceful especially compared to nearby countries like Zaire, Kenya and Uganda. (Also, he invaded Uganda in 1979 to get rid of Idi Amin).

Muammar Gadaffi, Libya
Yes, he sponsored dodgy insurgent groups, but in fact so do many Western governments and allies. While at times oppressive, Libya under Gadaffi had the highest living standards in ALL of Africa and the Middle East according to the UN (even more so than the Gulf Arab kingdoms), everyone had education, healthcare, housing, and if a treatment wasn't available in Libya then the government would pay for its citizens to receive it abroad. Furthermore, in his final years in power, he built lots of solar panels in the desert and was planning to introduce a pan-African currency independent of the dollar.

Gamal Abdel Nasser, Egypt
He recovered the Suez Canal from the West, kept Islamists at bay and all Egyptians under him had access to good quality public services, especially compared to subsequent leaders who have increasingly privatised and marketised everything in the country.

Juan Domingo Peron, Argentina
Not actually a dictator as such - he was freely elected - but he did become an autocrat in the way he operated. All the same, after being appointed Minister of Labour by a pre-existing military regime, he rallied round the trade unions and became freely elected in his own right as a civilian with a political programme that vastly improved the living standards of ordinary workers, expanded the welfare state and for a number of years all but axed poverty and unemployment in the country.

Fidel Castro, Cuba
Particularly in the context of this forum, this is perhaps the most controversial of the list. Nevertheless, human rights abuses under him were on a far smaller scale compared to both most other Communist regimes and many Latin American military regimes. Furthermore, the improvements in health, education, science and sport were enormous, and certainly he rescued Cuba from the incredible corruption and decadence of the Batista period.

What satanic garbage website did you copy and paste that from?

[Sebastianus Rex]

"Antonio da Oliveira Salazar, Portugal
Before his rise to power, Portugal had by some distance the worst literacy rate in Western Europe, and its currency collapsed something like three times in fifteen years. However, after rising to the top in a military regime which originally appointed him Minister for the Economy, he stabilised the country's finances and instigated a large schoolbuilding and literacy campaign which proved highly successful. While there were cases of dissident students and intellectuals being imprisoned, in comparison to many other dictatorships in Europe - notably in neighbouring Spain - it was much milder."

Well go tell that to my grandaunt, a single mother who lost his only son in his 20's in Africa for a non sense war.

Why was it a nonsense war? Wasn't part of your family living in Angola back then ? Surely it was worth fighting to keep safe the people over there, Portuguese and even Angolans. If people thought it was such nonsense back then why didn't they simply decided to leave ? You're swallowing too much dumb leftist clichės lately.

Ultimately all the wars are stupid.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Disagree with Peron, after him the Argentine economy never was the same. Until the 1960's the GDP PC was on par with some of the richest European countries and after decades of stagnation and economic crisis...legacy of the Peronismo.

Fidel Castro ?! Is that a joke, Cuba is an absolute shithole, people don't even have soap to wash their asses.

[Cernunnos]

Why was it a nonsense war? Wasn't part of your family living in Angola back then ? Surely it was worth fighting to keep safe the people over there, Portuguese and even Angolans. If people thought it was such nonsense back then why didn't they simply decided to leave ? You're swallowing too much dumb leftist clichės lately.

Ultimately all the wars are stupid.

Yeah my family was there, so what? Other part of my family was not there and they still lost a member of it for a stupid war. Also who instigated to heavily settle Angola and Mozambique back then even when all of Europe started to decolonize???? Oh wait we would do it differently, we would be the exception to the rule maintain our colonial Empire (good luck with that) and maintaining our economic boom started in the late 50's/early 60's for eternity.

It would be very funny to watch the fate of the regime if we managed to borrow the 25 april coup d'etat, assuming that the war was won in Angola and Mozambique and lost in Guinea. As soon as the USSR and the east bloc fell in 1989-1991, the Portuguese colonial presence in Angola/Mozambique would crumble and the regime itself too like Apartheid South Africa.

[Cernunnos]

Disagree with Peron, after him the Argentine economy never was the same. Until the 1960's the GDP PC was on par with some of the richest European countries and after decades of stagnation and economic crisis...legacy of the Peronismo.

Fidel Castro ?! Is that a joke, Cuba is an absolute shithole, people don't even have soap to wash their asses.

GDP per capita doesn't mean that much.

[Tooting Carmen]

Disagree with Peron, after him the Argentine economy never was the same. Until the 1960's the GDP PC was on par with some of the richest European countries and after decades of stagnation and economic crisis...legacy of the Peronismo.

Argentina's decline began before WWII, though even its supposed wealthiness is overrated - it was based mostly on the cattle/beef industry and the wealth was heavily concentrated in a few hands. While not 100% successful, under Peron there was a considerable degree of industrialisation and equalisation compared to beforehand.

Fidel Castro ?! Is that a joke, Cuba is an absolute shithole, people don't even have soap to wash their asses.

Still has a better HDI than quite a few other supposedly freer Latin American and Caribbean countries.

And what do you think of the rest of my list?

[Tooting Carmen]

Salazar to me was the greatest statesman this country ever had during our Republican era. I can not think of any other statesman who could remotely measure up to him. His importance goes way beyond economic measures since there are strong historical indicators that Portugal could potentially not even exist today if it weren't for him. Before Salazar the Republic was an entire mess, 48 different governments, 8 presidents and 8 general elections in just 15 years. Constant protests and coup d'etat attempts, with the Communists\Anarchists potentially being able to seize power as they did in Catalonia, which most likely would lead to an invasion of Francoist forces and end any possibility for neutrality in the second world war. From them on we can only hypothetically speculate what the outcome would have been but most likely the country would have been destroyed like the majority of the nations that took part in conflicts during that era.

Which proves my more general thesis that democracy isn't necessarily the best system for all times and all places. While Portugal is, for all intents and purposes, a 'mainstream' Western democracy now, it clearly didn't really have the conditions to be one back then.

And what do you think of the rest of the list?

[Sebastianus Rex]

Yeah my family was there, so what? Other part of my family was not there and they still lost a member of it for a stupid war. Also who instigated to heavily settle Angola and Mozambique back then even when all of Europe started to decolonize???? Oh wait we would do it differently, we would be the exception to the rule maintain our colonial Empire (good luck with that) and maintaining our economic boom started in the late 50's/early 60's for eternity.

It would be very funny to watch the fate of the regime if we managed to borrow the 25 april coup d'etat, assuming that the war was won in Angola and Mozambique and lost in Guinea. As soon as the USSR and the east bloc fell in 1989-1991, the Portuguese colonial presence in Angola/Mozambique would crumble and the regime itself too like Apartheid South Africa.

Now it's easy to talk because we know that in the end it was all for nothing since the morons who too power after 25 de Abril made a pathetic decolonization. But at the time the war started people did not think like that, there was hundreds of thousands of Portuguese there and they simply couldn't say, ok let's decolonize and go all back to Portugal because a few guerrillas started in the jungle.

Besides it's what I told you also, people who were living there were certainly not favourable to give up all their lives and what they've built for nothing. Don't buy that leftist cliché rethoric, those motherfuckers treated the retornados very badly and still say stuff like "my brother died in Africa so you -retornados- could keep enslaving the blacks and living large".

[Sebastianus Rex]

Yeah my family was there, so what? Other part of my family was not there and they still lost a member of it for a stupid war. Also who instigated to heavily settle Angola and Mozambique back then even when all of Europe started to decolonize???? Oh wait we would do it differently, we would be the exception to the rule maintain our colonial Empire (good luck with that) and maintaining our economic boom started in the late 50's/early 60's for eternity.

It would be very funny to watch the fate of the regime if we managed to borrow the 25 april coup d'etat, assuming that the war was won in Angola and Mozambique and lost in Guinea. As soon as the USSR and the east bloc fell in 1989-1991, the Portuguese colonial presence in Angola/Mozambique would crumble and the regime itself too like Apartheid South Africa.

Now it's easy to talk because we know that in the end it was all for nothing since the morons who took power after 25 de Abril made a pathetic decolonization. But at the time the war started people did not think like that, there was hundreds of thousands of Portuguese there and they simply couldn't say, ok let's decolonize and go all back to Portugal because a few guerrillas started in the jungle.

Besides it's what I told you also, people who were living there were certainly not favourable to give up all their lives and what they've built for nothing. Don't buy that leftist cliché rethoric, those motherfuckers treated the retornados very badly and still say stuff like "my brother died in Africa so you -retornados- could keep enslaving the blacks and living large".

[Sebastianus Rex]

GDP per capita doesn't mean that much.

In the case of Argentina I believe it means when the differences are so flagrant, they were on par with countries like France, UK, Germany back then in terms of GDP per Capita, now they have half of the Spanish PC GDP and consecutive bankruptcies. That was after Peronismo took control of the political system.