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Thread: The Tocharians - Indo-Europeans of the East

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gecko View Post
    To underline something, I often see the same pictures of page 1 if it comes to Uyghurs and Tocharians. Personally I believe they probably absorbed some of them into their people, not like they are just assimilated or predominately Tocharians, it’s probably just a small(not over 25%)admixture. The second point is, that this kind of Uyghurs are very rare and don’t represent the whole people, 95% of them look like Uzbeks or Turkmens. Also there are still some Iranic group who live there, some people on this pictures aren’t ethnic Uyghurs.
    It is always the same images, as if a couple of light-eyed or light-haired individuals are proof of substantial Tocharian admixture. The vast majority looks like this:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    True. I doubt the mummified were Tocharians though, there's 1500 years separating the mummies from the attested Tocharian language and the Tarim basin was a very volatile place. Given how they were almost uniformly R1a, i think it is more likely that they were Andronovo-derived and thus spoke some sort of Indo-Iranic.
    The new samples from the Tarim basin are anything but Indo-European speakers. They have a very archaic, native autosomal profile, with 81-84% ANE, no EEF, no CHG and no WHG. In contrast the samples from Dzungaria have recent Indo-European origins, in fact they have considerably less ANE (55-58%), more EEF (6-8%), considerably more CHG (18-24%) and WHG (2-6%). Both populations have some Eastern Eurasian admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    The new samples from the Tarim basin are anything but Indo-European speakers. They have a very archaic, native autosomal profile, with 81-84% ANE, no EEF, no CHG and no WHG. In contrast the samples from Dzungaria have recent Indo-European origins, in fact they have considerably less ANE (55-58%), more EEF (6-8%), considerably more CHG (18-24%) and WHG (2-6%). Both populations have some Eastern Eurasian admixture.
    Yes, but not sure if these Tarim mummies are the same Tarim mummies that i'm referring to. The Tarim mummies don't represent a single continuous population, after 1000BC most of the mummies were Mongoloid for example. These newly sequenced ones are dated to 2100-1700 and are uniformly R1b xL754, while the R1a and light-haired ones that people commonly post online were later (the Cherchen man, for example, is dated to 1000BC), so it could be that the former, extremely WSHG population was replaced by presumably Andronovo newcomers later on (thus the lack of R1b in the later, blond mummies).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Yes, but not sure if these Tarim mummies are the same Tarim mummies that i'm referring to. The Tarim mummies don't represent a single continuous population, after 1000BC most of the mummies were Mongoloid for example. These newly sequenced ones are dated to 2100-1700 and are uniformly R1b xL754, while the R1a and light-haired ones that people commonly post online were later (the Cherchen man, for example, is dated to 1000BC), so it could be that the former, extremely WSHG population was replaced by presumably Andronovo newcomers later on (thus the lack of R1b in the later, blond mummies).
    By the way, these new samples lend further support to the lack of continuity between Afanasevo and Tocharian language in the Tarim basin, which implies that Tocharian came later and from somewhere else.

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    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Yes, but not sure if these Tarim mummies are the same Tarim mummies that i'm referring to. The Tarim mummies don't represent a single continuous population, after 1000BC most of the mummies were Mongoloid for example. These newly sequenced ones are dated to 2100-1700 and are uniformly R1b xL754, while the R1a and light-haired ones that people commonly post online were later (the Cherchen man, for example, is dated to 1000BC), so it could be that the former, extremely WSHG population was replaced by presumably Andronovo newcomers later on (thus the lack of R1b in the later, blond mummies).
    I agree with everything you said. Just one thing: according to Davidski the R1a of Tarim mummies may not be accurate.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I agree with everything you said. Just one thing: according to Davidski the R1a of Tarim mummies may not be accurate.

    What is the chance that all of the 11 R1a (out of 12 samples) assignments were wrong? But if Davidski says that they could be, i will give it the benefit of doubt since the guy is a haplogroup nerd. If the R1a assignments turn out to be wrong then it will be much easier to argue for a Tocharian origin of these mummies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Timelord View Post
    Indeed.
    Tocharians predated IE satem/centum split though, thus they had no relation with any centum or satem IE language. They were basically PIE mirror, transplant in the farther east.
    Personally I think they looked like the proto-european high-broad faced yamnayas, as it is said on wikipedia. So Pontid or gingerish version of it would be commonplace today. Possibly proto-nordid, but I really believe proto-nordids resulted after mixing with EEF types for some reason. Yamnaya were more brunn-taurid combinations as they were modelled genetically, 1 west asian great grandfather, 2 scottish grandfathers or some sort, it was said on eupedia. This is the explanation of red hair among uyghurs. Coming from IEs.
    I think that whe should remember that Pre-Uyghur Tarim Basin people were actually of two different Indo-European sources. First migrants who got there were descended from Andronovo culture. They were probably Iranian language speakers, had mostly R1a haplogroup, and phenotypically resembled Andronovo people, so rather light pigmented at about 60% percentage.

    Second immigrants that you describe, were the Tocharians proper, who actually came to Tarim Basin later and were probably descended from Afanasievo culture. More resembling original Yamnaya type, they had mostly R1b haplogroup. They assimilated Iranian peoples and were later themselves conquered and assimilated by Uyghur tribes. "Scottish grandfather" theory is a big LOL of course, but Andronovo people did have EEF and WHG influence (they were Corded Ware offshoot), this explains lightness.

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    Does anyone know what this Afanasievo sample looked like? I've seen it in an ancient calculator run, and I'm wondering what modern populations it would be similar to.

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