The Tocharians - Indo-Europeans of the East

[Grace O'Malley]

That kid isn't Uyghur It's taken by Steven Edson a photographer in Boston. That kid's most likely an Irish-American but he is American at any rate.

Some pictures that come up are just a bit suss when you search these exotic populations.

[Steppe Timelord]

That kid isn't Uyghur It's taken by Steven Edson a photographer in Boston. That kid's most likely an Irish-American but he is American at any rate.

Some pictures that come up are just a bit suss when you search these exotic populations.

Right,. But I would have said there is still a hope to find some pure unaltered IEs in central asia anyway . There was some red headed french guy on flickr where he was put in an album together with some light-featured afghanis, everyone classified him as corded-turanid or uralid unironically, because he also had some hooded eyes. Can't remember which thread was that. But I lurked and found it some time ago. That was funny. He was in fact the photographer or something.

[Hektor12]

That kid isn't Uyghur It's taken by Steven Edson a photographer in Boston. That kid's most likely an Irish-American but he is American at any rate.

Some pictures that come up are just a bit suss when you search these exotic populations.

But isnt it interesting, some people can use pic of a child from Atlantic coast, as a pic of a child from almost Pacific coast. Imagine the distance.

[Parça do Neymar]

I'm still unsure if the Tocharians and the Tarim Mummies were the same people (or particularly related), there's a substantial time gap between the two cultures (some of the mummies are dated from ~4000 years ago), I wouldn't rule out the possibility of an Iranic origin (e.g. like the Saka from the same region).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Dzungarian samples (2900 BC)

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA2:G218M5-3N
Distance: 4.5345% / 0.04534455
54.0	RUS_Tyumen_HG
12.2	RUS_Karelia_HG
9.2	GEO_CHG
6.0	DEU_LBK_KD
5.6	IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
4.8	CHN_Amur_River_9200BP
4.2	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
4.0	CHN_Boshan_N

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA2:G218M5-2
Distance: 4.0626% / 0.04062607
52.8	RUS_Tyumen_HG
15.8	GEO_CHG
15.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
6.6	IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
5.8	DEU_LBK_KD
3.4	CHN_Boshan_N

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA1:SSGM16
Distance: 5.1099% / 0.05109876
34.4	RUS_Tyumen_HG
27.8	RUS_Karelia_HG
22.0	GEO_CHG
6.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
4.0	IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
3.4	GRC_Peloponnese_N
1.4	DEU_LBK_KD
0.8	IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA1:AYIM22BY
Distance: 4.5150% / 0.04515004
41.0	RUS_Tyumen_HG
22.8	RUS_Karelia_HG
16.8	GEO_CHG
9.6	IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
7.6	DEU_LBK_KD
2.2	CHN_Amur_River_9200BP

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA1:AYIM22BN
Distance: 4.2187% / 0.04218741
31.8	RUS_Tyumen_HG
23.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
16.8	GEO_CHG
11.8	RUS_Karelia_HG
6.2	IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
5.0	DEU_LBK_KD
5.0	IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso

Tarim samples (1900 BC)

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA2:11KBM1
Distance: 6.3685% / 0.06368452
51.0	RUS_AfontovaGora3
32.4	RUS_Tyumen_HG
6.0	MNG_North_N
5.4	CHN_Boshan_N
3.0	RUS_Kolyma_Meso
1.2	CHN_Dushan_8700BP
1.0	CHN_Yumin_N

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM135
Distance: 5.3267% / 0.05326748
71.2	RUS_Tyumen_HG
16.2	RUS_AfontovaGora3
7.8	RUS_Dzhylinda_Meso
2.6	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2	RUS_Ust_Belaya
1.0	USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM110
Distance: 5.4513% / 0.05451325
64.8	RUS_Tyumen_HG
25.2	RUS_AfontovaGora3
6.8	CHN_Amur_River_EN
2.6	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
0.6	USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM100
Distance: 5.7922% / 0.05792210
53.8	RUS_Tyumen_HG
34.8	RUS_AfontovaGora3
10.0	RUS_Ust_Belaya
0.8	ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP
0.6	USA_Ancient_Beringian

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM75
Distance: 6.1183% / 0.06118302
72.4	RUS_Tyumen_HG
19.0	RUS_AfontovaGora3
4.4	RUS_Ust_Belaya
2.2	USA_Ancient_Beringian
1.2	ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP
0.8	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6106
Distance: 6.1976% / 0.06197578
47.6	RUS_Tyumen_HG
41.0	RUS_AfontovaGora3
11.0	RUS_Ust_Belaya
0.4	ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6105
Distance: 6.3794% / 0.06379411
45.2	RUS_Tyumen_HG
42.6	RUS_AfontovaGora3
11.6	RUS_Ust_Belaya
0.6	ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6103
Distance: 5.5762% / 0.05576215
75.2	RUS_Tyumen_HG
15.4	RUS_AfontovaGora3
8.8	RUS_Dzhylinda_Meso
0.4	CHN_Liangdao1_N
0.2	RUS_Ust_Belaya

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6101
Distance: 5.3411% / 0.05341071
55.6	RUS_AfontovaGora3
31.4	RUS_Tyumen_HG
11.6	CHN_Amur_River_EN
1.4	USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L5213
Distance: 5.8742% / 0.05874219
67.6	RUS_Tyumen_HG
20.0	RUS_AfontovaGora3
7.8	RUS_Ust_Belaya
3.0	USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP
1.6	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L5209
Distance: 5.9496% / 0.05949582
72.4	RUS_Tyumen_HG
18.2	RUS_AfontovaGora3
5.6	RUS_Ust_Belaya
2.4	USA_Ancient_Beringian
1.4	ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:GMGM1
Distance: 5.9163% / 0.05916268
59.8	RUS_Tyumen_HG
23.2	RUS_AfontovaGora3
8.8	CHN_Amur_River_EN
6.4	USA_Ancient_Beringian
1.8	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

[Lemminkäinen]

How researchers can know that they spoke Indoeuropean language without written evidences? Looking at their mtDna their mother language could have been something else. Today over 3000 languages are endangered and most of them likely lost in the near future.. Projecting the present to the past is problematic.

[Creoda]

How researchers can know that they spoke Indoeuropean language without written evidences? Looking at their mtDna their mother language could have been something else. Today over 3000 languages are endangered and most of them likely lost in the near future.. Projecting the present to the past is problematic.

It's a logical deduction. You have a known Indo-European language branch there and you have a known European Steppe-descended people who lived there. Where else would it have come from?

[NSXD60]

It's a logical deduction. You have a known Indo-European language branch there and you have a known European Steppe-descended people who lived there. Where else would it have come from?

I think he's more interested in Finns being that he's Finnish, not PIEs, whose languages are not related to his, even though racially he may be more PIE than Finn; it's sort of like Meds who deny the original Nordicity of PIEs while speaking a PIE derived tongue.

[Token]

It's a logical deduction. You have a known Indo-European language branch there and you have a known European Steppe-descended people who lived there. Where else would it have come from?

True. I doubt the mummified were Tocharians though, there's 1500 years separating the mummies from the attested Tocharian language and the Tarim basin was a very volatile place. Given how they were almost uniformly R1a, i think it is more likely that they were Andronovo-derived and thus spoke some sort of Indo-Iranic.

[Mejgusu]

To underline something, I often see the same pictures of page 1 if it comes to Uyghurs and Tocharians. Personally I believe they probably absorbed some of them into their people, not like they are just assimilated or predominately Tocharians, it’s probably just a small(not over 25%)admixture. The second point is, that this kind of Uyghurs are very rare and don’t represent the whole people, 95% of them look like Uzbeks or Turkmens. Also there are still some Iranic group who live there, some people on this pictures aren’t ethnic Uyghurs.