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Thread: The Daco-Roman Continuity Theory Makes No Sense!

  1. #11
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    I actually compiled kind of a personal short cheat sheet on the most recent theories coming from leading historians, archeologists and geneticists from Romania.
    It's not much, but here's what I have so far.

    Thracians

    Language: Satem branch of IE, related to Balto-Slavic and Iranic families

    Ceramic vases characteristic to the East-Balkanic area were found in the VII B2 level from Troy. Dated to around XII BC, they confirm the migration of people from the Balkans to the Near East.

    By XII BC Thracians divide into ethnic groups and distinct tribes.

    During LBA, in the region of the future Dacia, populations from the steppes, bearers of the Noua and Coslogeni cultures, settled in.
    Economy of cattle breeding

    Noua and Coslogeni are derived from Sabatinovka; evolved until IA.

    Iron objects intra-Carpathic region - one of the oldest (axes, knives, daggers) in this region.
    Metallurgy is supposed to have been introduced from South - Greece or East - Cimmerians via Armenia, Caucasus and the steppe.
    IA objects show connections to Mycenaean Greece.
    They were either traded or appeared due to individual mobility.

    By X - VIII BC, region of modern Romanian territory was roughly divided in 2: Gava-Holihrady (grooved ceramics) - North, Babadag, Cozia-Brad - South (incised and printed ceramics)

    Gava-Holihrady believed the ancestors of the Dacians, Babadag and Cozia-Brad -- Getae and Moesians.
    Due to the uniformity of the materials and the forms of the manifestation.

    Both influenced Basarabi culture, arose in VIII BC, combined both ceramic designs, created spiral and geometric motifs. Also shaped by Illyrian elements.
    Pastoral type of economy, based on transhumanism.
    Formed ties with North Pontic Greek colonies.

    In Wallachia, Basarabi transitioned to the Ferigile-Barsesti culture.
    Characterised by kurgan burials with incineration. Funerary inventory shows Scythian elements, as well as Illyrian and South Thracian.
    These are considered the Getae.

    Scythian groups in Transylvania represented by warriors who imposed their authority on local communities. Borrowings and influences happened on both sides.
    Will disappear gradually during V BC.
    Around middle of V BC, in the necropolis from Baita, Mures, Scythian burials transit to the incineration style, while the inventory retains the usual Scythian elements. Hence, their assimilation was happening in full swing by then.

    Next century characterised by Illyrian influences.

    Sigynnae lived to the West, in the basin of Tisa. Iranic Thracians of Scythian provenience, similar clothing to that of the Medes. Identified as the Szentes-Vekersug culture. Evolved until the arrival of the Celts in IV BC.

    Near Carei-Satu Mare, local communities were not ruled by outsiders. Sanislau-Nir, characterised by necropoles with burials of urn incineration style, no Scythian artefacts.
    Apart from usual vases worked by hand, 20-30% worked by the wheel. Likely transfer of know-how from North Pontic Greek colonies.

    Getae V - III BC

    Under authority of the Odrysian Kingdom in V BC - IV BC.
    According to Tucidide, the Getae are neighbouring the Scythians with whom they share the same weapons and are all mounted archers.
    After the death of Alexander the Great, the Thracian domain rebelled against the new diadochi - Lysimach. The Getae, who lived in Wallachia and Northeastern Bulgaria were led by Dromichaites.
    Sboryanovo in Bulgaria, believed to be the Getic residence of Dromichaites. The architectural elements, together with the paintings suggest strong ties with the Greek world. Balkan_IA_5769 is 150km away from there, in Dzhulyunitsa.

    Most common iconographic themes: men riding horses, hunting scenes, men and women riding war chariots, sacrifices, winged feminine divinities, hierogamy, animal fights, animal processing, fantasy animals, mythical heroes (Herakles).

    Kurgans started to disappear around III BC. The phenomenon indicates the dissolution of the aristocracy, determined by societal transformation.
    As the political power of the aristocracy weakened, Celts and Bastarnae managed to settle in the region.

    Thracian Dark Ages, III - II BC
    In this period, the local aristocracy changed, both ethnically and archeologically.

    Kurgans disappeared and where replaced by incineration style tumulus burials, which contained the remains that were placed in urns, armory and weaponry representative of local types (sica, shields of type umbo) and sometimes also Celtic. This phenomenon is called the Padea-Panaghiurski Kolonii group.
    Characteristic for Southern Romania, this group expanded to Transylvania and Southern Moldova. They gave birth to the Dacian kingdom under Burebista.

    Dacia

    During Burebista

    The migration from the South towards Transylvania happened due to both strategic and economic reasons.
    Salt exploitation in Mures valley; open to distribution both to the West and South.

    The aristocracy migrated together with people from Wallachia. Number of rural settlements doubled in this period. Also, the first raised settlements appeared, which are characteristic of the flourishing period of the Dacian civilisation.


    In Serbia, Gomolava, lots of archeological Dacian materials like ceramic vases and graves with weapons similar to those in Transylvania.

    Greek builders from Pontic colonies raised military, civil and religious buildings in Sarmizegetusa. They were constructed with shaped stone, typical of Greeks, and according to the Greek techniques. They were a permanent population there, as stone buildings and ceramic vases with Greek inscriptions and letters have been attested.

    In the 1st century AD, Lentulus and Aelius Catus moved over 50k Dacians from the mountains to South of the Danube and established garrisons North of the Danube. The purpose of the garrisons was to stop Dacians from descending from the mountains in winter to pass the frozen Danube and raid the territories South of the Danube, some of which were Roman provinces.

    In years 66-67 AD, governor of Moesia Tib. Plautius Silvanus Aelianus resettled over 100k Transdanubians to Moesia as a workforce and also tribute. This population comes from the intersection of the Danube between Southern Republic of Moldova and Ukraine. Thus, this population was likely a mix of Getae, Bastarnae and Sarmatians.

    From a visual aspect, the Dacian capital - Sarmizegetusa Regia resembled a Mediterranean town. Historians compared it to Pergamon.

    For Getae and Dacians, burials by incineration main practice between V-III BC, found in ~2k necropolises. However, some members of aristocracy practiced inhumation. In II BC there are almost no burials, which leads to the speculation that burial practices changed fundamentally. It is speculated that individuals were incinerated and their remains were thrown in the river. From the time of Burebista, I BC, several kurgan necropolises of the aristocracy were discovered. The remains were incinerated though. Victims of human sacrifices in I AD were buried by inhumation and usually in a shared pit.


  2. #12
    Veteran Member CommonSense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    The fact that albanian has common words with romanian has no relevance for Romania, if anything, it strengthens the idea of continuity. Why? Because some dacian words also have meanings in modern albanian and those common words that we have are largely believed to be of dacian origin and dacians never lived on the Adriatic coast. This argument is used against albanians, not against romanians. There are books detailing this.

    And "danube romanians" are no benchmark for anything, they're mongrels in-between many ethnicities and secondly, wallachians are the most southern romanians(by little) cause they border bulgarians and didnt have the norhtern minorities that other regions had. Romania is a large country, nobody claimed "pure daco-roman" ancestry, just a common denominator. Btw, transilvaneans by look are really unslavic, more than wallachians, dinarid faces are the norm and majority have higher NA than baltic and high amounts of r1b.
    We don't have any tangible knowledge about the Dacian language, those words labeled as such are simply of an origin that doesn't belong to any extant language or language group. In reality they could be Thracian or something else entirely.

    Transylvanians have higher Baltic than North Atlantic, as all Romanians do, and their alleged physognomical differences are just a result of them being mountain dwellers:

    Romania_Transylvania,24.31,25.97,17.43,10.13,16.98 ,1.84,0.65,0.54,1.04,0.59,0.35,0.07,0.10

    They've certainly got more Slavic ancestry than Wallachians, and it should be the other way round if Transylvania was the refugee for Roman Dacians after the area north of the Danube got overwhelmed by Goths, Sarmatians and later Slavs and Cumans.

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    Veteran Member CommonSense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    Why go so far though? Scythians from Moldova, who in reality were probably Geto-Dacians, where as Southern as the Iron Age Thracian from Bulgaria. Then the Slavic element came into the mix and changed Romanians to where they are today genetically.

    Thrace is South of the Jirecek line btw, which doesn't make any sense, as Romanian would have been loaded with Greek words.
    The Jiricek line wasn't south of Thrace, it went right throught the middle of the region (according to linguists anyway):


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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    We don't know any tangible knowledge about the Dacian language, those words labeled as such are simply of an origin that doesn't belong to any extant language or language group. In reality they could be Thracian or something else entirely.

    Transylvanians have higher Baltic than North Atlantic as all Romanians do and their alleged physognomical differences are just a result of them being mountain dwellers:

    Romania_Transylvania,24.31,25.97,17.43,10.13,16.98 ,1.84,0.65,0.54,1.04,0.59,0.35,0.07,0.10

    They've got more Slavic ancestry than Wallachians, and it should be the other way round if Transylvania was the refugee for Roman Dacians after the area around the Danube got overwhelmed by Goths, Sarmatians and later Slavs and Cumans.
    Who says what percentage of the NA and Baltic came from slavic tribes and how the invading slavs resembled genetically?

    Only one thing is certain, wallachians were closer to bulgarians geographically and transilvaneans had northern minorities and were closer to their northern neighbours, this perfectly explains the 2-3% differences.

    Thirdly, why are you and Mingle trying to prove that romanians are either "pure daco-romans" or "0 percent daco-romans" when south slavs themselves are little part invading slavs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    The Jiricek line wasn't south of Thrace, it went right throught the middle of the region (according to linguists anyway):
    Modern Wallachians or any other regional group != the medieval or earlier version of that group. Not to mention that most Romanians in Dobrudja region have Aromanian roots, because 35% of the Romanians who came to Romania during the Bulgarian-Romanian population transfer after WW1 were Aromanians.



    Wallachians likely also have additional Bulgarian and Greek ancestry from the modern period. Most Wallachian surnames are either descended from patrimonial names or professions, but among those which don't there are plenty of hints at Bulgarians (Dobre(scu), Dragnea, Petcu, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    Szekelers are different than romanians and from hungarians from Hungary but closer to romanians, because they lack the heavy germanic influence that hungarians from Hungary have today
    Incorrect. Szekelys have high Germanic admixture both in ydna and autosomal. What differs them from Hungarians from Hungary is lower Slavic, higher Vlach and higher conqueror-like input.

    By the way, many szeklers today are mixed with hungarians from Hungary or others like austrians, it's almost the norm.
    In Szeklerland they are not. Anyways, only unmixed people are used for averages anyhow.

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    Veteran Member CommonSense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    Modern Wallachians or any other regional group != the medieval or earlier version of that group. Not to mention that most Romanians in Dobrudja region have Aromanian roots, because 35% of the Romanians who came to Romania during the Bulgarian-Romanian population transfer after WW1 were Aromanians.



    Wallachians likely also have additional Bulgarian and Greek ancestry from the modern period. Most Wallachian surnames are either descended from patrimonial names or professions, but among those which don't there are plenty of hints at Bulgarians (Dobre(scu), Dragnea, Petcu, etc.)
    Two out of the three first-attested Wallachian dukes/leaders had Slavic names too, it doesn't have to imply a recent Bulgarian origin. A significant part of the Romanian vocabulary used to be Slavic anyway, until those words were purged and despite that even today you still say 'da' for 'yes'

    Likewise Aromanian settlment was minor outside of Dobruja and oddly enough Dobruja is a bit more northern than Muntenia according to the averages you yourself made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    The Jiricek line wasn't south of Thrace, it went right throught the middle of the region (according to linguists anyway):

    I wouldn't call that the middle of Thrace. It's either on the Northern boundary or North of it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    I don't have any reason to support or oppose the Daco-Roman continuity theory. I'm just writing about history as I see it from a third person (non-Romanian, non-Hungarian) perspective and am relatively open minded on the issue since this is a departure from a previous opinion I held.
    You're copy pasting the same trash all over again. This has been refuted here a million times.

    How about you go in my posting history and learn a bit.

    You start with bullshit and then you go downhill.

    Dacians were not wiped out by the Romans. That's nonsense, no sensible historian would support this. The common arrangement of the Roman settlements/cities in Roman Dacia was to be supported/surrounded by Dacian farmer's villages. This has been the case until 6th century AD. There's ample archaeological evidence for this. There were far more Dacians in Roman Dacia than Romans. Thinking otherwise is just dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    Who says what percentage of the NA and Baltic came from slavic tribes and how the invading slavs resembled genetically?

    Only one thing is certain, wallachians were closer to bulgarians geographically and transilvaneans had northern minorities and were closer to their northern neighbours, this perfectly explains the 2-3% differences.

    Thirdly, why are you and Mingle trying to prove that romanians are either "pure daco-romans" or "0 percent daco-romans" when south slavs themselves are little part invading slavs?
    We have loads of samples from medieval Early Slavs and they all resemble each other, from Saxony to Russia. And which northern minorities did Transylvania have besides Hungarians? The Hungarians themselves were catholic, ruled the land and thus it wouldn't have made sense for many of them to convert to orthodox and assimilate among Romanians.

    As for your final point, the three analyzed remains from the 10th century burial site in the Timok region show only about 55% affinity to the dozens of ancient samples found in the same area. The rest of the admix is from a northeastern source which could have only been Slavs (as evidenced by the Y-DNA of the two out three of the males).
    So the 10th century Timoceans were about 45% Slavic and they're more southern than modern-day Serbs

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