Most East Eurasian ethnic groups of Europe

**Sandis** · 10-07-2021, 11:18 PM

If Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongolic groups and Russians are not included then:
1. Abazins
2. Kabardins
3. Karachays

If also Caucasian groups are not included then some are closer to North Asian, some to East Asian. Some ethnic groups which are closer to both:

Moldovans, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Swedes, Norwegians.

**~~Komintasavalta~~** · 10-07-2021, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Joqool

I heard that there are four different groups within the Mari: Meadow Mari, Hill Mari, Northwest Mari and Eastern Mari. It makes me wonder where the Mari individuals in G25, Cordona and Tambets came from. I wonder if the Eastern Mari who live in Bashkortostan can be up to 40% Mongoloid and shift closer in PCAs to Bashkir, Tatar Siberian, Mansi, Khanty than other Maris? Would the Northwestern Mari be more like the Chuvash genetically? It will be perfect to have all four samples from these Mari groups.

Bashkortostan Maris mostly live in northwestern Bashkortostan, and the northern Bashkir samples from Jeong et al. 2019 are less Mongoloid than Maris:

28.7 (26.0-32.1) Bashkir_latitude_56 (n=12)
31.0 (31.0-31.0) Tambets_Maris (n=1)
31.7 (22.0-40.6) Bashkir_latitude_55 (n=22)
32.4 (31.0-33.3) Cardona_Mari (n=4)
43.8 (37.9-46.2) Bashkir_latitude_53 (n=19)

Individual samples:

Spoiler!

Also in Bashkortostan, many of the localities with a Mari majority/plurality are next to localities with a Tatar majority/plurality:

**Blondie** · 10-08-2021, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

Pffft, you're the one who commented on my genetics first. Also you sound like a civic nationalist, which is funny because of how you type regarding other things. I guess that the "new Germans" can be just as German, too.

The difference is germans have maintained their original genetic core in very high number unlike hungarians, so this genetical thing makes sense in Germany but not in Hungary where the population is not descedants of the original conquerors. The hungarian society was always civic nationalist, that's why Sándor Petőfi (100% serbian), Miklós Zrinyi (100% croat), Lajos Kossuth (half german half slavic) and many other historical figure is part of hungarian nation, because they considered themselves hungarian doesn't matter that they had no any hungarian ethnic roots. But the complete magyarization was based on civic nationalism in the 19. century, when Tisza, Apponyi and others said doesn't matter that you are 100% romanian, slovak, serbian, jewish, german etc you can be hungarian if you have hungarian identity. Its not my problem that you have no idea about the history of your own ethnicity. If being hungarian is a genetically thing than you are not even hungarian with your 1-2% asian admixture, that's why your genetic obsession is bullshit.

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

I remember when people didn't even recognize the Turkic connections of conquerors. Genetic studies has changed this conversation and shifted the narrative of anti-Turkic sentiment Hungarians to "well, it ISN'T MUCH" lol. As if that was the point in the first place. Besides, I have Turkic ancestry that is legacy from the steppes. I didn't expect the Hun Mongolia results, but they're pretty cool too.

Just because someone doesn't identify themselves turkic it doesn't mean they are anti turkic. Where did you learn this "if someone is not with us then they are our enemy" logic? From Ceausescu? But if we are talking about hate what about the brainless hate against finns, estonians and other finno-ugrics what you hungarian turanists spreads everywhere? If you see any pro finno-ugric hungarian video the turanist trolls suddenly appearing to post tons of finnish hater comments. But i can quote the pro-turanist Mór Jókai about finns:

De én nem akarok semmi testvériséget se a finnekkel, se a lapponokkal, se a csuvasokkal, se a többi rongyos riha pereputtyal. Nekem Attila volt az ősapám! Az Isten ostora!

which means:

But i don't want to any brothership with finns, lapps, chuvash peoples and neither the other dirty subhumans. My gradfather was Attila! The scourge of God!

Source from ELTE University:
http://finnugor.elte.hu/?q=rokonsag

Funny but Jókai thought chuvash peoples are uralic, because he lived in the 19. century and at this time it was not completely clearly that chuvash are uralic or turkic. Also very funny and ironic that the finnish Komintasavalta user love hungarian turanists so much, i think he never visited any hungarian turnist community, i guarantee you will get such anti-finnish and anti-uralic hate what you have never seen in your life lol

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

I have posted that link in this very thread. I have seen it more than once, and I have read the sources. Just like I read other sources, and know where they come from, like the foreign Hungarian Free Press propaganda, lol. I am from everywhere at this point to you. Turkey, England, Transylvania, etc. You have an odd interest in spending your time thinking about my personal life.

Man, my sources were hungarian professors, scientists etc from the Academy and not the Hungarian Free Press. And this "where are you from" thing is important because if you live in abroad and you was born in abroad it means you know nothing about Hungary and the local mentality, peoples etc because you are a foreigner. Very interesting that you are and one and only hungarian user who don't write any comment to such hungarian threads what are about the daily things what happened in Hungary. Every hungarian user do it, except you because you have no idea about it. That's why its pretty clear to me that you live in abroad, i think in Romania because you are szekler.

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

Cumans were not some 100% E. Eurasian population. They were very European admixed already before entering Europe. We have some idea of the language of Cumans from codexes used to communicate with them, not "no idea." Cuman women did not fight like the men. Most were married in mixed relationships. If you understood steppe genetics, you would know that the populations were always very heterogeneous. Do you think that Szeklers are some non-Hungarian originated population?

It doesn't change the fact that cumans were asiatic in general and not europeans. If cumans mixed with local hungarians very much than Alföld hungarians must have much more asian genetic than western hungarians, but this difference doesn't exist. As i said and as i proved cumans lived in separated autonomus regions, they had different culture, it was the reason of the many hostility between cumans and hungarians what you also mentioned. Cumans were military folk and not farmers like hungarians.
Szeklers and hungarians are different peoples in many way, szeklers have own hymn, own flag, own national symbols (for example the half moon), own origin myth (Csaba prince and the huns, szekler = hun narrative) what you can't find in the other hungarian folklore what says huns and magyars were just brothers but not same peoples (you can read it in the Gesta Hungarorum). Although there is no evidence that szeklers adopted the hungarian language but every sign says they were originally turkic speakers.

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

Anatolian Turks fighting Hungarians is like Prussians fighting Austrians. Are they supposed to be blood enemies forever? How many Germanics killed one another over religion (Protestant vs. Catholic), land, whatever. That doesn't change shared origins.

Who said that we must hate turks because of ottoman past? Nobody said that. And the prussian-austrian narrative is completely wrong, because prussians and austrians spoked a same language, they had same religion, same culture, unlike hungarians and turks who speaks different language, they practice different religion and had different culture.

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

Generally positive. Hungary hosts Kurultaj, is part of the Turkic council, and supports many Eurasian causes.

Feeling about turks is absolutely not generally positive nowadays because of Orbán's anti migrant anti muslim propganda what you can see everywhere in Hungary. For an average hungarian everyone who came from a muslim country (and Turkey is muslim) is satanic and negative. In the reality the reputation of turks is just impartial/neutral in the majority society, there is a minority who like turks and there is an other minority who hate turks.
And the visitors of Kurultaj doesn't represent the majority society. I can also do this cherry picking, these are pro german hungarians:

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

Some TA Hungarians will not approve, but they are genuinely in the minority in the public.

This is your biggest lying. You can fool foreigners who has no idea about Hungary, but hungarians thinks differently not just in TA. This is the most popular hungarian cultural site in the net check these comments:
https://www.gyakorikerdesek.hu/polit...-a-testvereink

"Are turks our brothers?"

most pouplar answers:

"Genetikailag nem. Aki kicsit is ismeri a tortenelmet az valoszinuleg tudja hogy tortenelmileg sem." means "Genetically not. If someone knows the history a little bit they knows neither historically"

"Nem azok. Az ősmagyarok vettek át kulturális dolgokat török népektől (pár szó és eszköz) de ennyi. Ha megnézed a magyar és török genetikát láthatod hogy semmi közünk nincs hozzájuk:" means "they arent. The old hungarians adopted some thing from turkic peoples but thats all. If you see the hungarian and turkish genetic, you can see that we have nothing to do with them"

These is another question about it, everyone can translate:
https://www.gyakorikerdesek.hu/polit...ok-rokon-nepek

all pro turkish comments were down voted, so why are you lying? You guys are the minority.

Originally Posted by Turul Karom

This is because they have the desire to be more western

This is another bullshit, Benyzero and Blogen are not pro western and they are anti turkic, just like the pro turkic Chris was rather more liberal. The world is not black and white only in your mind.

**Zanzibar** · 10-08-2021, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Komintasavalta

Bashkortostan Maris mostly live in northwestern Bashkortostan, and the northern Bashkir samples from Jeong et al. 2019 are less Mongoloid than Maris:

28.7 (26.0-32.1) Bashkir_latitude_56 (n=12)
31.0 (31.0-31.0) Tambets_Maris (n=1)
31.7 (22.0-40.6) Bashkir_latitude_55 (n=22)
32.4 (31.0-33.3) Cardona_Mari (n=4)
43.8 (37.9-46.2) Bashkir_latitude_53 (n=19)

Individual samples:

Spoiler!

Also in Bashkortostan, many of the localities with a Mari majority/plurality are next to localities with a Tatar majority/plurality:

Are there some Maris who also live on the Asiatic side of Urals like in Khanty-Mansiysk? I wonder if they would be even more Mong than average Mari.

**Sora** · 10-08-2021, 04:07 PM

All of these folks;

1) Kalmyk
2) Tatar(all of Crimean, Volga & Lipka Tatars)
3) Nogay
4) Khanty
5) Udmurt
6) Mansi
7) Mari
8) Saami
9) Turkish(both Anatolian & Balkan)
10) Finnish
11) Northwest Russian

**Hektor12** · 10-08-2021, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Blondie

Funny but Jókai thought chuvash peoples are uralic, because he lived in the 19. century and at this time it was not completely clearly that chuvash are uralic or turkic. Also very funny and ironic that the finnish Komintasavalta user love hungarian turanists so much, i think he never visited any hungarian turnist community, i guarantee you will get such anti-finnish and anti-uralic hate what you have never seen in your life lol

I dont understand this? How can you be anti finno-uralic if youre Turanist? You arent going somewhere far away, theyre eurasian brothers. Some kind of Turanists here even count Finns and Estonians part of Turan. They may exlude them, but why to hate them?

**Nanushka** · 10-08-2021, 09:01 PM

**Blondie** · 10-08-2021, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hektor12

I dont understand this? How can you be anti finno-uralic if youre Turanist? You arent going somewhere far away, theyre eurasian brothers. Some kind of Turanists here even count Finns and Estonians part of Turan. They may exlude them, but why to hate them?

Because this uralic vs turkic thing is a real war in Hungary. Turanists don't accept that the hungarian language is finno-ugric or hungarians have FU origin, and pro-uralics deny almost every realitionship with turkics. And this two fanatic cult hate each other.

**Turul Karom** · 10-09-2021, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Blondie

The difference is germans have maintained their original genetic core in very high number unlike hungarians, so this genetical thing makes sense in Germany but not in Hungary where the population is not descedants of the original conquerors. The hungarian society was always civic nationalist, that's why Sándor Petőfi (100% serbian), Miklós Zrinyi (100% croat), Lajos Kossuth (half german half slavic) and many other historical figure is part of hungarian nation, because they considered themselves hungarian doesn't matter that they had no any hungarian ethnic roots. But the complete magyarization was based on civic nationalism in the 19. century, when Tisza, Apponyi and others said doesn't matter that you are 100% romanian, slovak, serbian, jewish, german etc you can be hungarian if you have hungarian identity. Its not my problem that you have no idea about the history of your own ethnicity. If being hungarian is a genetically thing than you are not even hungarian with your 1-2% asian admixture, that's why your genetic obsession is bullshit.

Germans most certainly did not maintain their core thanks to all of their fruitless wars; they are changing it radically even today (hilariously, with many Turks from Anatolia!), and the Hungarian conquering population was very diverse. The idea of "pure Hungarian" has always been nonsense outside of arbitrary terms that nobody could implement. You should have known this already, especially based on the haplogroups and admixture results from the latest studies of Hunnic, Avar, and Conqueror graves from the past few years. Heterogeneous mixture of steppe peoples made the Hungarians. We are a natural result of that.

The Empire you praise in your signature with the photo was Kossuth's nightmare, and he correctly predicted that it would result in the death of Hungary for the benefit of a temporary western-worshiping aristocratic group. I find it ironic you would invoke his name at all.

Apparently, you consider being Hungarian exclusively "Asian" which is very weird considering that no Turkic group is so overwhelmingly East Asian as a majority of their admixture besides a select few. Besides, I lol'd at you saying 1-2%. Maybe if you are talking Far East Asian only, then yes, but I have more C. Asian as well. You are again pivoting from saying "you have no relationship genetically!" to the new position of "you don't have much of one left!" which is also hilarious considering you don't get the locations or % correct. Not good if you are so obsessed with my genome.

Just because someone doesn't identify themselves turkic it doesn't mean they are anti turkic. Where did you learn this "if someone is not with us then they are our enemy" logic? From Ceausescu? But if we are talking about hate what about the brainless hate against finns, estonians and other finno-ugrics what you hungarian turanists spreads everywhere? If you see any pro finno-ugric hungarian video the turanist trolls suddenly appearing to post tons of finnish hater comments. But i can quote the pro-turanist Mór Jókai about finns:

Funny but Jókai thought chuvash peoples are uralic, because he lived in the 19. century and at this time it was not completely clearly that chuvash are uralic or turkic. Also very funny and ironic that the finnish Komintasavalta user love hungarian turanists so much, i think he never visited any hungarian turnist community, i guarantee you will get such anti-finnish and anti-uralic hate what you have never seen in your life lol

You have some weird thoughts about Turanists. Not everyone hates Finns, lmao. Just like there are hilariously Aryan-aspiring Hungarians, there are certainly some caricatures all around, but nothing is as tragic as worshiping the Aryan ideal of the 1488 type of Hungarians who the Nazis would have always seen as inferior races.

Your particular strain of anti-Turk is not content to live your life normally; you feel the need to attack the concept of Hungarian ethnogenesis. Only without the taint of "steppe genes" will you ever be pure. This is why so many have a problem with even 5% Turkic mixture: they see it as a blot of ink on an otherwise perfectly white paper. The tragedy is compounded when the conquerors were primarily Turkic. Shame, and I am aware that I cannot help everyone with this mindset, but I am happy to at least live my life with good friendship across Eurasia.

Man, my sources were hungarian professors, scientists etc from the Academy and not the Hungarian Free Press. And this "where are you from" thing is important because if you live in abroad and you was born in abroad it means you know nothing about Hungary and the local mentality, peoples etc because you are a foreigner. Very interesting that you are and one and only hungarian user who don't write any comment to such hungarian threads what are about the daily things what happened in Hungary. Every hungarian user do it, except you because you have no idea about it. That's why its pretty clear to me that you live in abroad, i think in Romania because you are szekler.

Your source is Wikipedia, which cites the Hungarian Free Press website as an acceptable quotation and fact-checking source and references it frequently in its claims about Hungarians. Wikipedia quoting is lazy, craven, and is never accepted in academia. For someone who is so adamant about being "academic," you would know that..

As far as the Hungarian events thread, I don't partake in them outside of posting in Kurultaj event threads. They get no traffic (barely even near one page of posts, single-lined), and I have little interest in some of the topics. For Hungarian-exclusive discussions, there are better websites. Also, certainly not every Hungarian user posts in every Hungarian thread. I haven't posted on TA in general in almost one full year. I prefer talking to a variety of people here who never post in the HU threads too. When Chris was still around, we had some good conversations at least. He understood the value of a one-on-one talk (like other TA members on my friends list). You just seem pouty.

It doesn't change the fact that cumans were asiatic in general and not europeans. If cumans mixed with local hungarians very much than Alföld hungarians must have much more asian genetic than western hungarians, but this difference doesn't exist. As i said and as i proved cumans lived in separated autonomus regions, they had different culture, it was the reason of the many hostility between cumans and hungarians what you also mentioned. Cumans were military folk and not farmers like hungarians.

Yawn. The Hungarians to you were Asiatics, since you think that is the only % that matters in being a Hungarian. You cannot determine the origin of every bit of Turkic mix of every single Hungarian without finding a corresponding grave. That is the difference between admixture, relatedness, and shared DNA segments that can be quantified.

Plenty of Cumans settled down. They didn't all kill themselves on the swords of Hungary's enemies. If they did that in your mind, then you should be eternally grateful to them and humbled that this "Asian" horde would sacrifice itself on the altar of Hungarian nationhood. However, I believe that they elude your sympathy..

Szeklers and hungarians are different peoples in many way, szeklers have own hymn, own flag, own national symbols (for example the half moon), own origin myth (Csaba prince and the huns, szekler = hun narrative) what you can't find in the other hungarian folklore what says huns and magyars were just brothers but not same peoples (you can read it in the Gesta Hungarorum). Although there is no evidence that szeklers adopted the hungarian language but every sign says they were originally turkic speakers.

Yes, yes, we all know the different hymn, flag, etc nonsense. It's because it's an attempt to keep the identity alive in Transylvania, not to establish a new ethnic group. Szeklers in Romania identify as Hungarian and not as a unique ethnicity. If you are somehow calling my subgroup paradoxically non-Hungarian, then what should I identify myself as in your eyes? It seems ironic that you would think that the Hunnor-Magor mythos is somehow reputable but scratch your nails until they bleed against solid-steel Turkic genetic research.

There is no reason to think Szeklers were Turkic speakers outside of the unique name. The Conquerors were also using Turkic names, organization, military tactics, religion, etc, so does this make them all Turkic to you, too? Or does the language classification mean everything to you? Do you think speaking like this makes us all Englishmen?

These are all real questions that you don't answer because it is politically inconvenient for you to argue about original language while also talking about "language being the nation." I don't even agree with that quote because language changes all the time for many reasons. A nation is a body of people with a shared past, ethnogenesis, and value system that governs their civilization. It is a mix of all three as key components of an identity. Only the craziest person would think that this essential structure of civilization is transferable like money from hand-to-hand.

Who said that we must hate turks because of ottoman past? Nobody said that. And the prussian-austrian narrative is completely wrong, because prussians and austrians spoked a same language, they had same religion, same culture, unlike hungarians and turks who speaks different language, they practice different religion and had different culture.

You seem to allude it a lot when you say "Ottomans killed their Cuman brothers" as though it's a little dig at them when in reality, meta-ethnics have fought internally forever, and they probably will continue to do so in the future. Modern Turks are more Islamic, yes, but we once shared the same faith. That alone should mean something (which people use to get along despite modern differences, which is something beautiful) but apparently this modern layer of paint is all that matters to you. You should be more bitter to Germany as it kills itself with layers of shame, then.

Feeling about turks is absolutely not generally positive nowadays because of Orbán's anti migrant anti muslim propganda what you can see everywhere in Hungary. For an average hungarian everyone who came from a muslim country (and Turkey is muslim) is satanic and negative. In the reality the reputation of turks is just impartial/neutral in the majority society, there is a minority who like turks and there is an other minority who hate turks. And the visitors of Kurultaj doesn't represent the majority society. I can also do this cherry picking, these are pro german hungarians:

Hah, these are not pro-German Hungarians. These are German-wannabee Hungarians. Look at the flags! At Kurultaj, the Hungarian flag is everywhere along with brotherly flags. These people carry German imperial symbols and also some iconography from a narrow period of WW2. You can always spot them by their use of the Iron Cross award everywhere. They can't even use a Hungarian WW2 military decoration. Shameful.

My ancestors fought in this worthless war where Hungary could only lose no matter who won. Stuck between two bad choices, Hungary tried to do its best to maintain its independence and regain land from Trianon. That alone is honorable and worthy of true honor. Don't smear the name of the Hungarian WW2 dead with the idea that they aspired to be Aryans and declared war accordingly.

This is your biggest lying. You can fool foreigners who has no idea about Hungary, but hungarians thinks differently not just in TA. This is the most popular hungarian cultural site in the net check these comments:

The Hungarian government is a part of the Turkic council, generously funds Kurultaj, makes sweeping pro-Turkic world policies and statements, and you think that your WW2-German-wannabee front is the one with the most presence in the country? Yours is a faction that goes nowhere, and shrinks every generation. Mine is a faction that only grows. Hungarians who are free from foreign occupation will always gravitate in the majority towards their steppe roots. This is a truth that you will never eliminate. I could be gone from the Internet forever, and this is an inevitability. The WW2 German worship will never amount to anything, especially in the modern world. You are about 80 years too late to bother with courting Nazis for anything.

Website posts from anti-Turanists means nothing. I can show more comments about pro-steppe sentiment. But video is even better. See the largest cultural event in Hungary..

(hint: it does not take place on a website):

This is another bullshit, Benyzero and Blogen are not pro western and they are anti turkic, just like the pro turkic Chris was rather more liberal. The world is not black and white only in your mind.

I don't claim to speak for them. Blogen is someone who has their own idea about the ancestry of the Hungarians who doesn't seem to post often, and Benyzero has massive Viking tattoos all over his chest. He also claims Germanic ancestry. Of course this is evident because he posts pictures of them for years on TA. I don't know what they think specifically in their regular day-to-day life about Turkic people. Benyzero has been nice to me, as has Blogen. Chris' politics and other beliefs were well-known to me. He was a good friend from TA indeed.

The only thing black and white is your view on Hungarians who have measurable steppe ancestry and choose to embrace it: that we are problematic. If you dislike it so much, feel free to not reply and just post about what interests you, but as it's apparent that I occupy some unasked for spot in your brain, I doubt that will happen. It's clear that the majority of readers even itt agree with my positions, or at least find my science amicable, rather than your dipping into the toxic well of anti-Hungarian sentiment that would see us severed from even the smallest strands of our steppe past.

**Turul Karom** · 10-09-2021, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hektor12

I dont understand this? How can you be anti finno-uralic if youre Turanist? You arent going somewhere far away, theyre eurasian brothers. Some kind of Turanists here even count Finns and Estonians part of Turan. They may exlude them, but why to hate them?

Simple.

They are telling lies.

The same thing about how some claim Hitler only had hatred England while he also paradoxically courted them. It is of two minds, the person who feels this way. It is bad-faith arguments.

You will find more Ural-Altai people who are "big tent" than exclusionary. Will you find exclusionary people? Yes. But they have other hangups rather than just hating on Finland. I am not one of these people, but I have spoken to them. Sometimes they speak from intense emotion of betrayal in that Finland doesn't do enough for Turanist causes, and they feel as though Finland tries too hard to be Scandinavian/viking originated more than steppe-oriented with their cultural and national policies. The Scandinavian-themed cross flag is a good example, while the Szekler flag is a clear attempt to show more Turkic history, for instance.

You also hear in uncited English sources (besides those that source themselves, which is hilariously bad academia) about how Turanists thought Jesus was a Hungarian via being a Scythian (spoiler alert: nobody in Hungarian academia or steppe research thinks that). For some reason, this is still brought up to slander Hungarians, and is always attached to another EU-related political message. You can find just as many Turan memes even online that include Finland.

Even here, literally the first comment on Buusra's funny YouTube meme video is a Finn laughing along with Hungarians about the shared experience.