Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 24 of 24

Thread: Are there any surviving writings of the Bulgar language in medieval Bulgaria?

  1. #21
    Member викторслава's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Last Online
    02-27-2022 @ 06:12 PM
    Location
    US&A
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Russian 1/2 Macedonian
    Ancestry
    Sarmatian/Scythian + Macedonian
    Country
    United States
    Taxonomy
    west baltid/kurganoid
    Politics
    Preservation of the Slavic ethnicity
    Hero
    Jesus Christ
    Religion
    Christianity
    Gender
    Posts
    137
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 42
    Given: 163

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    The largest inscription - the one from Preslav, lists the armaments of two high Bulgarian dignitaries - one of the rank of ICHIRGU BOYLA and another of the rank of TORTUNA PILI JOPAN. The inscription reads:

    ZITKOI ITZIRGU BOILA
    HOUMS-HI KJUPE 455
    TOULS-HI 540
    ESTROGIN KJUPE 427
    TOULS-HI 854
    TURTUNA PILE ZHUPAN
    ESTRJUGIN KJUPE 20
    TOULS-HI 40
    ALHASI KJUPE 1
    HLOUBRIN
    It is interpreted as a list of weapons due to the frequent repetition of the word KJUPE (meaning "armament, armor" in many Eastern languages) and also from the fact that against each occurrence of the word KJUPE there are numbers expressed in letters. The numbers certainly show the number of weapons that each dignitary must have possessed. This feature has already been discovered by the first researchers of the inscription - J. Denis and J. Venedikov, and it is an important contribution to its decipherment. Researchers have so far tried to explain the inscriptions only with the help of Turkic languages, which, however, do not have words such as "estrogin" and "chlobrin" and designations such as "humski kyupe" and "alhasi kyupe". Thus the inscription can be translated in half. Below is a systematic list of terms in the inscription and their meaning in some Eastern languages:
    ZITKOY ICIRGU BOYLA. Since the sound "ch" is missing in Greek, a possible explanation for the first word ZITKOI is given by the Eastern Iranian term CHITKA - "fortification, moat", which is still used in the Tajik language in the form of CHUDGOH - a fortified military camp. In the Caucasus (among the Chechens and Legions) from this root are formed the words CHUCH -VAR - ditch, fortified with stones, and CHUTKIYA - cover. The end -I is also well known in Eastern Iranian languages.
    ALHASI KUPE. We already know the second part of the expression, but now we want to define what the word "alhasi" means. The Preslav inscription shows that the Alhasi Coupe armament was not a normal armament, available in large quantities - there was only one of them, compared to 400 or more copies of other armaments. Therefore, the translation of "alhasi coupe" as "postal armor" made by previous researchers of the inscription is very incredible. Postal armor was not uncommon, on the contrary - it was the most common type of armor for the areas from which the proto-Bulgarians came. The combination

    ALHASI KJUPE means something else. Instructions for its meaning come from the languages ​​of those peoples who once lived in the vicinity of Kubrat Bulgaria (North Caucasus and Southern Russia). In some of these languages ​​(eg Georgian) the word ALHASI means siege machine. Therefore, it can be assumed that in the proto-Bulgarian language ALHASI KJUPE did not mean a general type of armor, but large protective equipment with observation towers. This explains why, unlike other types of weapons - "chumshi kjupe", "estrogin kjupe", the weapon "alchasi kjupe" is mentioned only in one copy in Preslav. but large defenses with watchtowers. This explains why, unlike other types of weapons - "chumshi kjupe", "estrogin kjupe", the weapon "alchasi kjupe" is mentioned only in one copy in Preslav. but large defenses with watchtowers. This explains why, unlike other types of weapons - "chumshi kjupe", "estrogin kjupe", the weapon "alchasi kjupe" is mentioned only in one copy in Preslav.


    ESTROGIN CUPE. This expression from Preslav has remained untranslated so far. Comparing the word "estrogen" with the Hungarian "tarragon", a kind of canopy, cannot solve the problem. However, in a number of small Pamir languages, the word 'estrika' means knitting, from which the adjective 'estrigin' (knitted) is derived. Conditions of this type have been observed in the Pamirs since the first century AD. Therefore, it is very likely that the proto-Bulgarian "ESTROGIN KJUPE" means "postal armor", ie. the typical eastern type of armor. The Preslav inscription shows that the defenders of Preslav had a total of 427 weapons of the "estrogen coupe" type. Such a large quantity can be considered postal mail.

    HOUMS-HI KJUPE. This somewhat difficult expression has been translated as "soft armor" so far. The reason for this was the slight similarity between HOUMS-HI and the Turkic JUMSHAK. However, it would be difficult to find people who call their armor "soft." If we take into account the fact that due to the missing sound "sh" in the Greek language the combination "sh" is used instead, it can be assumed that the word HOUMS-HI KJUPE sounded like HUMSHI KJUPE in Proto-Bulgarian, which greatly facilitates investigations. In the regions adjacent to the former Kubrat Bulgaria in the Caucasus, even today the word HUNCHI (shaped, cast in metal) is found, which resembles the proto-Bulgarian term HUMSHI. In more detail, under the Caucasian word HUMCHI is hidden the Sumerian Akkadian term HUMSJU (molded piece). Thus, the unsettled expression HOUMS-HI KJUPE does not mean "soft armor", but cast armor, ie. a type of armor common in the Middle Ages. The Nadslav inscription shows that the weapon, called HUMSHI KJUPE, was available in large quantities, which also fits very well with the assumption that it means molded, not "soft" armor.


    TOULS-HI. The translation of this word by previous researchers, who all agreed that it should be translated as a helmet, was quite accurate. Also, the quantity of this item was large (over 1000 pieces), which correlates with the number of the above-mentioned weapons, as wearing helmets was mandatory. So far, the Turkic word "tuldzha" is the only form proposed as similar to the word "touls-hi". But, as in the case of "kjupe", no further attempts have been made to find similarities. Given that the proto-Bulgarian word is pronounced as "tulshi" (since the Greek combination "sh" sometimes meant the sound "sh"), it seems that the proto-Bulgarian word is closer to the Sumerian Akkadian term TULSJU (helmet) (formed by the Sumerian root TUL [cover]) and not the Turkic "


    HLOBRIN. There was a consensus that this word, like the word ESTROGIN, was of Turkic origin and was considered to mean "saddle". But HLOBRIN had to be a very rare article, as Preslav's inscription mentions only one copy of it, which obviously contradicts his interpretation as a "saddle". Like the proto-Bulgarian word HLOBRIN, there were some ancient terms common among Indo-European peoples, such as the Pamir word "hulburae" (protective cover) and the Celtic word "hlubram" (canopy). Therefore, HLOBRIN was most likely a large defensive device used to attack fortresses.
    ranslation of the entire Preslav inscription / after I. Dobrev / as:


    THE FORTRESS (or THE REINFORCED CAMP)
    THERE ARE 455 SUMMER ARMORS
    AND 540 HELMET,
    427 Postal Armor
    AND 854 HELMET.
    THE CHIEF PRIEST OF THE TRIBE IS
    20 POSTAL ARMORS,
    40 HELMET,
    A FIGURE TOWER
    AND ONE STATION.
    so how can the bulgars have spoken a turkic language if there are only very few turkic words here? is there any other evidence pointing to them speaking a turkic language

  2. #22
    Veteran Member PAGANE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Last Online
    03-25-2024 @ 03:28 PM
    Location
    Varna
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Bulgar
    Ethnicity
    Bulgarian
    Ancestry
    Byzantine + Scythian (5.528) Seleucid + Scythian (5.695) Seleucid + Gaul (7.389) Byzantine + Gaul
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Y-DNA
    E-FTD7860 / maternal grandparents I-p37, J-M172
    mtDNA
    J1c-C16261T
    Taxonomy
    Beautiful
    Religion
    Orthodoxy Christianity
    Relationship Status
    In a relationship
    Gender
    Posts
    2,149
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,896
    Given: 1,003

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by викторслава View Post
    so how can the bulgars have spoken a turkic language if there are only very few turkic words here? is there any other evidence pointing to them speaking a turkic language
    The number of written artifacts that have survived to our time is too small to be able to reconstruct the language they spoke. I don't know if it is Turkic, but according to what is still known to science and people, specialists bring it closer to the Turkic languages. There is other evidence, such as religion and rites, archeology, that brings them closer to the Turkic peoples, but this is not evidence of language
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

  3. #23
    Member викторслава's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Last Online
    02-27-2022 @ 06:12 PM
    Location
    US&A
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Russian 1/2 Macedonian
    Ancestry
    Sarmatian/Scythian + Macedonian
    Country
    United States
    Taxonomy
    west baltid/kurganoid
    Politics
    Preservation of the Slavic ethnicity
    Hero
    Jesus Christ
    Religion
    Christianity
    Gender
    Posts
    137
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 42
    Given: 163

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    The number of written artifacts that have survived to our time is too small to be able to reconstruct the language they spoke. I don't know if it is Turkic, but according to what is still known to science and people, specialists bring it closer to the Turkic languages. There is other evidence, such as religion and rites, archeology, that brings them closer to the Turkic peoples, but this is not evidence of language
    what religious and cultural evidence is there? is there any proof they worshipped tangra?

  4. #24
    Veteran Member PAGANE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Last Online
    03-25-2024 @ 03:28 PM
    Location
    Varna
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Bulgar
    Ethnicity
    Bulgarian
    Ancestry
    Byzantine + Scythian (5.528) Seleucid + Scythian (5.695) Seleucid + Gaul (7.389) Byzantine + Gaul
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Y-DNA
    E-FTD7860 / maternal grandparents I-p37, J-M172
    mtDNA
    J1c-C16261T
    Taxonomy
    Beautiful
    Religion
    Orthodoxy Christianity
    Relationship Status
    In a relationship
    Gender
    Posts
    2,149
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 1,896
    Given: 1,003

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by викторслава View Post
    какви религиозни и културни доказателства има? има ли доказателство, че са почитали тангра?
    It is not clear whether there is a religious cult among the Bulgarians towards any deity Tengri, as far as it is not clear to us what exactly the cults to Tengri (heaven) represent among the Turks. We do not have data that such things existed among the Bulgarians, nor do we have data that they did not exist. The Bulgarians have a cult with temples, and for the cult of the sky - Tengri in the east we have no data that it was a temple cult. Among the Bulgarians we have data about the worship of the Sun, the Moon, the Planets, about Fire Worship, about idols, about masquerade rituals (Boyan Maga turned into a wolf or another beast probably with a mask), we also have Bogomilism with its Zurvanist doctrine. That is, we have evidence of a Central Asian magical cult of Zurvan, which was also called Zurva.
    But there is an inscription from Pliska in which there are two syllables that are read as Tangra / Tengri, but it is still disputed whether this was really written, as part of the inscription is damaged and missing.

    Theophylact of Ohrid for the Bulgarians:
    "They did not know the name of Christ and with their Scythian ignorance served the Sun, the Moon and other stars. There were also those who sacrificed dogs ..."


    In the religion of the equestrian peoples, the supreme deity was not necessarily mentioned, because it was assumed that their ruler was placed from heaven and was even considered the son of heaven and his messenger on earth, so the authors of the inscriptions could hardly guess that after 13 centuries their descendants would know nothing and even that they would vehemently deny the existence of a paternal faith. The other thing they worship as a rule are natural elements and invisible spirits, for nomads the anthropomorphic personification is very uncharacteristic and their gods or spirits have no human form but are intangible natural forces and the connection with them is through shaman mediums.
    Tangra himself is not a god but an intangible natural force with many expressions,
    It is no coincidence that our ancestors always sought the omens of the supreme celestial deity in their military affairs, and this impressed Pope Nicholas.
    "... You say that you were accustomed, when you go to battle, to observe days and hours and to perform some divinations and spells ..."
    The attachment of the traditional pre-Christian ritual to the Chinese lunar calendar with the names of the years rat, rabbit, snake, horse, ram, ox and so on is attested in dozens of sources and is also woven into the cult of the supreme celestial deity.
    "May God honor the archon appointed by the god, by trampling the emperor well with his foot while the Ticha flows and while he rules over many Bulgarians ... And the time when it was built (this) was in Bulgarian - shegor elem ..."


    This is what the name system speaks about, as well as all the titles and ranks, their flag - horsetail, which is mentioned in the letter to the Pope, are exclusively in line with the religious tradition of the equestrian peoples.


    The open palace in Pliska is a circular structure with a diameter of about 30 meters.
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Bulgaria insists on denying “Macedonian language”
    By wvwvw in forum Северна Македонија
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 10-10-2020, 10:03 AM
  2. Volga Bulgar language
    By Visitor_22 in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-05-2019, 12:12 PM
  3. Surviving the Winter: Medieval-Style
    By The Lawspeaker in forum History
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-11-2018, 12:03 AM
  4. Post an ancient or medieval variation/predecessor of your language
    By gıulıoımpa in forum European Culture
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-30-2018, 04:44 PM
  5. The old Bulgar language
    By Crn Volk in forum България
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-18-2012, 06:39 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •