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Thread: Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    I checked Y-Full, the Illyrian samples from Croatia do not belong to the same subclade that predominates among contemporary Albanians:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/
    He never said they belong to the same subclade. They are ancient samples, of course they don't belong to the same sub clades. He said they belong to
    the same branch

    I26726, 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 (B440-, Y37818-, Y1421-)
    Such as the one found in Gudnja cave falls under the J-Z638 branch which majority of Albanian J2b2-L283 falls under

    https://www.yfull.com/chart/tree/J-Z638/


    There is also some Albanian J2b2-L283 that falls under those other branches

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.S. View Post
    J just have checked the G25 samples from "Provence" using G25 modern individual samples and averages. As far as i can judge, they are garbage, full of outliers from Italy, even from other part of France.
    I suspect they are from Nice, Italian town not long ago and next to the border, that's why it's so far off people that are actually from this region. Outliers in either direction might be from recent immigration, both from other parts of France and Italy (many people from all over France in recent times have wanted to come and settle in PACA)

    It's kind of same for the "French_South" sample, they are from two bordering regions of Basques but at least they are French ethnically or rather highly French Basque, as you would expect but surely not a half of the country.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    Code:
    Germanic,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
    Slavic,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
    Gaulish,42.85,16.74,22.72,4.28,9.36,1.58,0.63,0.27, 0.34,0.47,0.31,0.25,0.21
    Insular_Celtic,53.20,22.52,12.53,6.87,0.94,0.60,1.43,0.09,0.42,0.82,0.31,0.07,0.14
    Balkanic,21.26,20.34,19.00,11.77,22.61,3.09,0.18,0.47,0.47,0.41,0.38,0.04,0.00
    Roman,26.51,11.18,22.71,10.53,23.91,3.64,0.25,0. 23,0.1,0.24,0.32,0.24,0.11
    Finnic,34.17,47.69,4.43,2.21,0.65,0.42,0.53,0.96,6.48,0.90,0.81,0.50,0.26
    Baltic,26.74,58.36,6.41,2.73,0.78,1.1,0.77,0.09,1 .43,0.73,0.32,0.33,0.22
    SSA,0.07,0.06,0.08,0.07,0.10,0.13,0.08,0.07,0.22,0.07,0.33,13.01,85.70
    Surprised by the lack of Germanic....

    Nevertheless, the British Isles isn't technically a strong Germanic stronghold when it comes down to it.

    Distance to: de_Burgh_II
    5.83958046 Insular_Celtic
    10.45500837 Germanic
    12.25072243 Gaulish
    33.44975934 Roman
    34.62838720 Finnic
    35.08013255 Balkanic
    36.73588164 Slavic
    45.83543607 Baltic
    103.60283008 SSA

    Target: de_Burgh_II
    Distance: 0.8570% / 0.85699466
    68.9 Insular_Celtic
    30.1 Gaulish
    1.0 Roman
    “The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”

    - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stearsolina View Post
    This should mean southern England and Wales (southern Wales?) are more "Celtic proper" than Ireland or Scotland. Cornwall and SW England/South Wales are probably most genetically (continental) Celtic regions of British Isles today.
    It makes logical sense if you think about it. The Britons were a loose collection of Celtic tribes living in hill forts with a pastoralist culture without written records. Druids controlled administrative, judicial and other practical matters when it came to tribal affairs. Hence, their way of life was contrarian to the imperialist/cosmopolitan way of life of ancient Romans/Greeks who were more centered with a centralized bureaucracy. Ancients Celts were decentralized, tribal pastoralists before they were Romanized by the Romans.

    Nevertheless, Celts were highly intelligent and civilized in their own way contrary to Roman accounts:

    Society, Culture & Lifestyle

    The Celts actively traded with the Mediterranean world, exchanging notably their iron tools and weapons for wine and pottery. They also imported amber from the Baltic to resell to the Romans and Greeks.

    The Celts preempted the Romans in their construction of a road network across the European continent.

    The Celtic world was very decentralised compared to the Roman one, but at least a dozen Celtic towns possessed high stone walls rivalling those of Rome at the time. The longest were 5km long.

    Recent studies have shown that the Celts were more advanced than the Romans in some scientific and economic aspects. Pre-Roman Celtic calendars were much more accurate than the Roman one. In fact, they were possibly more accurate than the Gregorian calendar in use nowadays.

    Each Galatian tribe was organised in four septs (clans), each ruled by a tetrach (chief), assisted by a judge, a general and two deputy generals. Each sept sent 25 senators to a central shrine called Drunemeton.

    The Celts were immensely rich. We now know that Julius Caesar's main reason to conquer Gaul was to lay hands on Celtic gold. Over 400 Celtic gold mines were found in France alone. The Romans had little gold on their home territory, so the conquest of Gaul was a tremendous boost to their power.

    The Celtic nobility were also known to be clean shaven with well trimmed hair following the fashion of the time. Tweezers were also found on archeological sites.

    Ancient Celtic society gave much more freedom and power to women than the Greeks and Romans did. Greco-Roman housewives were prohibited to do business and mostly sequestrated in their home under the supervision of male family members. Celtic women could sometimes become powerful tribe leaders, and were also known to go to war.

    Celtic Warfare & Technology

    The Celts invented the chainmail (around 300 BCE) and the helmets later used by Roman legionaries. Celtic swords and shields were at least as good as the Roman's.

    The decoration of the Celtic weapons, chariots and artifacts was in many ways superior to those of many Mediterranean cultures.

    Gauls at the time of Julius Caesar were described as wearing shiny, gold-like armours and swords.

    The Celts' early development of prime iron weapons and armoury gave them a military advantage over the neighbours. It permitted them to conquer and subdue most of Europe for many centuries.

    The Celts had a reputation of fearsome barbarians among the Greeks and Romans. Around 400 BCE, they seized the territory that lay between the Appeninne mountains and the Alps (i.e. northern Italy), then went on to plunder Rome in 390 BCE. Even Alexander the Great made sure of avoiding war with the Celts, eagerly signing a peace treaty with them in 335 BCE, before embarking on his conquest of Persia. After his death, the Celts became a threat for the Greeks again. Lured by the wealth accumulated in Greek temples by Alexander, the Galatian Celts invaded Macedonia in 281 BCE and sacked Delphi in 279 BCE.

    Their defeat against the Romans was mainly due to the fact that they were disunited against the Roman enemy, and victims of internal tribal struggles.

    It is estimated that Julius Caesar massacred 1 out of 10 million of Celts in Gaul, and put another million into slavery. In modern terms, this would be called a genocide.

    Religion & Beliefs

    Like the Greeks, Romans, Germans and Hindus, the Celts were polytheists, and divinities varied from region to region, with a few major gods (like Lugh) recognised everywhere. Like the Romans, the Celts did not hesitate to venerate foreign gods as well.

    Druids were not only priests, diviners and astronomers, they were also judges, mediators, and political advisers who played an important role in declarations of war or peace.

    It took about 20 years of formation to become a Druid. Like the Christian clergy in the Middle Ages, Druids were usually from noble extraction, and trained from boyhood.

    Druidism might have originated in Britain. Nevertheless, Druids held their great annual assembly in the territory of the Carnutes, in central Gaul.

    Oaks were of primordial importance in Celtic religion. Druids ritually cut mistletoe off oak trees. The word "Druid" is related to the Celtic term for oak, and the gathering place for Galatian druids was called Drunemeton, literally "oak sanctuary".

    The Celts practised ritual human sacrifice to the gods, typically near water (lake, river, spring) and/or in forest groves. Victims were most often war prisoners or criminals. Druids being both judges and priests, it was a way of combining judicial or military executions with the honouring of the gods.

    The Celts didn't believe in heaven or hell, but believed in automatic reincarnation on Earth, regardless of one's deeds in life.

    Greek writers recall that, when meeting Alexander the Great, the Celts boasted that they feared nothing unless it were that Heavens might fall on them.

    Celtic warriors decapitated the defeated after a battle, took the heads back home as trophies, and exposed the headless bodies hanging on wooden frames.

    Sometimes, they replaced humans by huge amphoras of wine, and simulated the decapitation by cutting off the top of the amphora with a sword. The spilling wine would represent the blood.

    One of the most prominent Celtic deity in Gaul and Britain was Lug(us) (or Lugh in Irish mythology), whose great shrine was at Lugdunum (modern Lyon). Patron of trade and commerce, protector of travellers, and the inventor of all the arts, Lug's attributes identify him as the equivalent of the Roman god Mercury or the Greek god Hermes. Lug's feast was celebrated on 1st August. His symbol is the crow.

    The Celts compared to the Greeks and Romans

    Greco-Roman writers typically tell horrified accounts of the barbarous Celtic practice of human and animal sacrifice. Nevertheless, both Greeks and Romans sacrificed animals to the gods, and sometimes even humans (as did king Agamemnon with his own daughter). The Romans also famously organised games in which human beings fought each others in arenas to death for the pleasure of spectators. Furthermore, the Romans crucified political opponents and had prisoners killed or eaten alive by wild beasts in arenas. Overall, Celtic religious sacrifices were certainly less cruel and barbaric than what the Romans did.

    The Celts didn't put water into their wine, which was seen as a barbaric practice by the Greeks and the Romans. The Celtic way is the one that prevailed in modern times though, so it may not be that barbaric after all.
    https://eupedia.com/europe/celtic_trivia.shtml

    Nevertheless, there is historical evidence that Southern Brittonic tribes minted their own coins (albeit crude designs) due to exchanges with Northern Gaulish tribes on the mainland.





    Caption:

    Ancient Celtic Gold Stater Coin Minted under King Verica - 10 AD
    Ancient Coins - Ancient Celtic Gold Stater Coin Minted under King Verica - 10 AD
    zoom view
    A remarkable example of an ancient Celtic rose gold stater. Struck under King Verica, ruler of the Atrebates tribe of southern England, circa 10 - 40 AD.

    The obverse with rectangular tablet inscribed:

    COM F

    "Son of Commius"

    The reverse with a Celtic warrior (possibly Verica) galloping right and brandishing spear. The inscription reading:

    VIR REX

    "King Vericus"


    An important coin minted under King Verica, a man credited with changing the history of the British isles forever.
    Verica was one of the most powerful Celtic Kings of Late Iron Age Britain. He took control of the Atrebates tribe sometime around the early 1st century AD and governed a large part of Southern England. He was second only in influence to the famous Cunobeline (Shakespeare's Cymbeline).

    In the mid to late 30's AD, Verica's northern neighbours, the Catuvellauni, invaded and expelled him and his people from their tribal lands. In response, Verica took a drastic course of action which would forever change the lives of the British population and their descendents. He fled to Rome to ask for the help of Emperor Claudius. The Roman historian Casius Dio records:

    "Aulus Plautius, a senator of great renown, made a campaign against Britain; for a certain Vericus, who had been ejected from the island during a revolution, had persuaded Emperor Claudius to send a body of troops there."
    It is thus most likely that Verica's appeal and subsequent help (using his knowledge of local military tactics and geography) enabled the Romans to finally capture Britain, in so doing starting a new chapter in the story of the British Isles and her people.

    Weight: 5.30 g

    Diameter: 17.70 mm

    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/art...2/Default.aspx

    “The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”

    - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piotraschke View Post
    150 Iron Age samples seems few*, but it is hard to get DNA - most of Iron Age cultures from Poland's territory were burning their dead.

    *At least it seems few compared to 550 Medieval.
    And how many do we have from Early Slavs of Prague-Korchak culture for instance? It has to be much less than that. They have also practiced cremation.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by de Burgh II View Post
    Surprised by the lack of Germanic....

    Nevertheless, the British Isles isn't technically a strong Germanic stronghold when it comes down to it.

    Distance to: de_Burgh_II
    5.83958046 Insular_Celtic
    10.45500837 Germanic
    12.25072243 Gaulish
    33.44975934 Roman
    34.62838720 Finnic
    35.08013255 Balkanic
    36.73588164 Slavic
    45.83543607 Baltic
    103.60283008 SSA

    Target: de_Burgh_II
    Distance: 0.8570% / 0.85699466
    68.9 Insular_Celtic
    30.1 Gaulish
    1.0 Roman
    I didn't create that calculator for individuals, just comparing populations. And no, Cornwall is not a stronghold of Germanic blood, if that's your real ancestry, but England has plenty.

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