Roma/Gypsies Are Most Closely Related To The Kashmiri Pandits

[VikLevaPatel]

The Gypsies are quite a complex bunch....

European Roma groups show complex West Eurasian admixture footprints and a common South Asian genetic origin:

Comparative linguistics and genetic studies have placed the origin of European Roma in the Northwest of India. After their migration across Persia, they entered into the Balkan Peninsula, from where they spread into Europe, arriving in the Iberian Peninsula in the 15th century. Our results suggest that the putative origin of the proto-Roma involves a Punjabi group with low levels of West Eurasian ancestry. In addition, we have identified a complex West Eurasian component (around 65%) in the Roma, as a result of the admixture events occurred with non-proto-Roma populations between 1270–1580. Particularly, we have detected the Balkan genetic footprint in all European Roma, and the Baltic and Iberian components in the Northern and Western Roma groups, respectively. Finally, our results show genetic substructure within the Iberian Roma, with different levels of West Eurasian admixture, as a result of the complex historical events occurred in the Peninsula.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1008417

Most of the Roma are genetically closer to Indians than to European populations, hardly surprising in view of the linguistic theories on the Indian origins of the Roma proposed two centuries ago. More importantly, this analysis highlights the internal diversity of the Roma, who appear to be genetically far more heterogeneous than autochthonous European populations.

However, the social organization and cultural dynamics in Indian populations lead to substructure in closely-related linguistic groups, as is reflected in the different proportions of Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and Ancestral South Indian (ASI) genetic components shown in groups even living in the same geographic region, which prevents them to be considered as genetically homogeneous groups and challenges the retrieval of the origins of Roma based solely on linguistic data.

Attachment 111093

Romani is closely related to Punjabi and Kashmiri languages, and the populations showing the highest relatedness to Roma/Gypsies are Punjabis and Kashmiri Pandits.

We estimate that the Roma have ~80% West Eurasian ancestry, reflecting a combined estimate of the ANI ancestry that the Roma derive from their South Asian ancestors (pre-exodus) and the European ancestry related to the admixture in Europe (post-exodus to Europe).

Indians were grouped in seven regional categories as follows: North includes Tharu, Kharia, Vaish, Srivastava, Sahariya, Lodi, Pathan and Sindhi, Northwest includes Kashmiri Pandit and Punjabi, Northeast includes Nyasha and Ao Naga, Southwest includes Kurumba and Hallaki, Southeast includes Madiga, Mala, Vysya, Chenchu, Naidu, Velama and Kamsali, West includes Bhil, Meghawal and Gujarat, East includes Santhal and Satnami and Andamanese includes Great Andamanese and Onge.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.1696v1.pdf

Genetic investigations based on the study of paternal and maternal lineages (Y-chromosome markers and mtDNA) confirmed the South Asian origin of Roma. However, these studies were contradicting each other, because Y-chromosome studies suggested a South Indian origin, while mtDNA pointed out the Northwest Indian origin of Roma. This paper strengthened the Northwest Indian origin of Roma and concluded that Pakistan could also play significant role in the origin of Romani people.

According to our analyses, Roma showed significant IBD sharing of 0.132 Mb with Northwest Indian ethnic groups. The most significant IBD sharings included ethnic groups of Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat states. However, we found also significant IBD sharing of 0.087 Mb with ethnic groups living in Pakistan, such as Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Kalash, Makrani, Pashtun and Sindhi.

https://archive.md/biCmO#selection-711.1007-711.1582

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7354824
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7335367
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7354826

[Mortimer]

Interesting. Kashmiri Pandits are Brahmins though, I thought Romani are Dalits?

[VikLevaPatel]

Interesting. Kashmiri Pandits are Brahmins though, I thought Romani are Dalits?

Yeah, but the "Brahmins" of Different Regions and Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Indian Subcontinent do not cluster together:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7354824

Studies have been done where the lower and upper castes of one state are genetically more similar to each other than upper-castes across two different states (Gupta 2001). The Census of India declares that among Gujaratis, there are "definite associations between the Nagar and the Audich Brahmins, the Nagar Brahmins and the Brahma-Kshatri, and the Kathis and the Bania-Jains. Associations are also found between the Audich Brahmins and the Brahma-Kshatri, and between the Audich Brahmins, and the Kunbi-Patidars and the Kathis. The Kunbi-Pattidars however do not show any association with any other caste." (Census of India, 1931, Volume 1, Issue 3. PAGE XXVII)

[Impaler]

Romani people originated in Rajastana, Ajmer. They were Banjara/Lambadi (nomadic tribe). Many of them migrated to west, Afghanistan and Iran, and some to south Indian states.

[Nurzat]

some of my ancestors probably

[Dunai]

My brand new Modern Global Population Calculator based on G25 coordinates reflects very well the findings of this study. The Parsi are an Iranian origin ethnoreligious group (Freddie Mercury was also Parsi) while the Canarians are 8/10th Iberians and 2/10th Berbers. It's clear that Romas in the Balkans mixed quite a lot with the locals while the same happened with Romas in Iberia.

Target: Roma: Balkans
Distance: 2.0520% / 0.02051989 | ADC: 0.5x RC
45.4 East-Balkanic
31.0 Western South-Asian: Parsi
23.0 Northern South-Asian: Uttar-Pradesh Hindi
0.6 West-Anatolian

Target: Roma: Iberia
Distance: 1.8045% / 0.01804478 | ADC: 0.5x RC
32.8 Canarian
23.2 Western South-Asian: Parsi
21.2 Northern South-Asian: Uttar-Pradesh Hindi
19.0 East-Balkanic
3.8 West-Anatolian

[Mortimer]

some of my ancestors probably

You said Romanians warned your wife that you are a gypsy lol you don't look really gypsy to me but I give you the pass because you suffered anti gypsy discrimination

[VikLevaPatel]

Yeah, but the "Brahmins" of Different Regions and Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Indian Subcontinent do not cluster together:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7354824

Y-haplogroup G was observed to be present at high frequency in Gujarat Brahmins and Bihar Paswans, whereas Y-haplogroup O was more frequent in Uttar Pradesh Kols and Gonds. Sharma, Swarkar, et al. "The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system." Journal of human genetics 54.1 (2009): 47-55.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post7358423

[VikLevaPatel]

South India may have been one of the contributors to the proto-Romanis.

One of the primary unanswered questions regarding the dispersal of Romani populations concerns the geographical region and/or the Indian caste/tribe that gave rise to the proto-Romani group. To shed light on this matter, 161 Y-chromosomes from Roma, residing in two different provinces of Serbia, were analyzed. European genetic signatures (i.e., haplogroups E1b1b1a1b-V13, G2a-P15, I-M258, J2-M172 and R1-M173), on the other hand, were also detected in both groups, but at varying frequencies. The divergent European genetic signals in each collection are likely the result of differential gene flow and/or admixture with the European host populations but may also be attributed to dissimilar endogamous practices following the initial founder effect.

Gene. 2012 Aug 10;504(2):296-302. doi: 10.1016/j.gene.2012.04.093. Epub 2012 May 17.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22609956/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...7811191200563X
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...an_Populations

Our results indicate that the paternal gene pool of both groups is shaped by several strata, the most prominent of which, H1-M52, comprises almost half of each collection's patrilineages. The high frequency of M52 chromosomes in the two Roma populations examined may suggest that they descend from a single founder that has its origins in the Indian subcontinent. Moreover, when the Y-STR profiles of haplogroup H derived individuals in our Roma populations were compared to those typed in the South Indian emigrants from Malaysia and groups from Madras, Karnataka (Lingayat and Vokkaliga castes) and tribal Soligas, sharing of the two most common haplotypes was observed.

https://archive.is/XxgbN#selection-709.312-709.984

Our data also support the notion that a number of haplogroups including G2a-P15, J2a3b-M67(xM92), I-M258 and E1b1b1-M35 were incorporated into the proto-Romani paternal lineages as migrants moved from northern India through Southwestern Asia, the Middle East and/or Anatolia into the Balkans.

https://archive.is/BiSpM#selection-2197.1544-2197.1836

Indigenous and foreign Y-chromosomes characterize the Lingayat and Vokkaliga populations of Southwest India: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...8111913005714#

Previous studies have shown that India's vast coastal rim played an important role in the dispersal of modern humans out of Africa. In the present study, two Dravidian populations, namely Lingayat (N=101) and Vokkaliga (N=102), who represent the two major communities of Karnataka state, were examined using high-resolution analyses of Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNPs) and seventeen short tandem repeat (Y-STR) loci.

Our results revealed that the majority of Lingayat and Vokkaliga paternal gene pools is composed of four Y-chromosomal haplogroups (H, L, F* and R2) that are frequent in the Indian subcontinent.

https://archive.is/ANXIZ#selection-935.554-935.748

The high level of L1-M76 chromosomes in Vokkaligas suggests an agricultural expansion in the region, while the predominance of R1a1a1b2-Z93 and J2a-M410 lineages in Lingayat indicates gene flow from neighboring south Indian populations and West Asia, respectively. Lingayat (0.9981) also exhibits a relatively high haplotype diversity compared to Vokkaliga (0.9901), supporting the historical record that Lingayat originated from multiple source populations.

https://archive.is/ANXIZ#selection-935.749-935.1207

The two upper castes – Lingayats and Vokkaligas – have dominated the state politics for decades.

https://archive.is/sguen

[VikLevaPatel]

September 1991,
Michael Witzel

The Kashmiri Brahmins, usually called Pandits, constitute one single group, the Kåśmīra Bråhmanas, without any real subdivisions. They form, according to Bühler, the first Indologist to visit the Valley, one unified community: they 'interdine' (annavyavahåra) and they also teach each other (vidyåvyavahåra, vidyåsambandha). But not all of them intermarry (kanyåvyavahåra, yonisambandha), which is the real test of belonging or not belonging to a single community. This is confirmed by Lawrence, who distinguishes "the astrologer class (Jotish), the priest class (Guru or Båchabat) and the working class (Kårkun). The priest class do not intermarry with either of the other classes. But the Jotish and Kårkun intermarry. The Jotish Pundits are learned in the Shastras and expound them to the Hindus, and they draw up the calendars in which prophecies are made about the events of the coming year. The priest class perform the rites and ceremonies of the Hindu religion. The vast majority of the Pandits belong to the Kårkun class and have usually made their livelihood in the employment of the state."

This division is believed to have taken place after the country turned to Islam in the fourtheenth century, and especially after the initial persecution of Brahmins at around 1400 A.D. As the Pandits then had to earn their living as scribes and other government officials, there was no longer any need, and actually, no possibility, for the majority of them to do priestly work. Therefore, at an unknown time during Muslim rule, they resorted to a "division of labor."

https://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~...riBrahmins.pdf