NW Croat vs Czech-Slovak members PCA

[rothaer]

in IE languages interrogative pronouns generally begin with a H or K sound, that's the connection

Actually we now come to the limits of my knowledge for beeing able to fully digest the content. I freely admit. But okay, I'll (try to) keep that in mind.

[vbnetkhio]

Actually we now come to the limits of my knowledge for beeing able to fully digest the content. I freely admit. But okay, I'll (try to) keep that in mind.

it's really simple, in Latin it's quis/quid etc, in English it's who, what etc, (it was actually pronounced hwo, hwat like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyCXAYBi9HU ) , in Slavic languages it's kak, kad etc.

[rothaer]

it's really simple, in Latin it's quis/quid etc, in English it's who, what etc, (it was actually pronounced hwo, hwat like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyCXAYBi9HU ) , in Slavic languages it's kak, kad etc.

IE k -> germ. h is known to me as a number of early "Germanic" names were linguistically not yet Germanic by definition, but pre Germanic. You have Clodwig -> H(Ludwig), Clotar -> (H)Lothar, the Rhine mouth river Vacalus (when Ceasar came) -> Wahalus (= Waal) just somewhat later, the Markomann Catualda (that would be Hadwald (had(er) = hassle) in modern German, tribe of Cimbrians from Cimbrian peninsula (in Denmark) who`s area today is called Himmerland and German hundert (hundred) is derived from (ought to be) kundert, something like that, however, that is closer to centum (hundred in Latin), etc.

So yeah, really simple.

[CommonSense]

But those dialects along the border with Slovenia are more like Slovene? I mean it's a such a small territory, why would they be radically different from each other?

Depends on which part of the border. In NW Croatia they speak the Kajkavian dialect which is very similar to Slovene. However all other dialects spoken in Croatia are not mutually inteligible with Slovene.

[Dick]

Depends on which part of the border. In NW Croatia they speak the Kajkavian dialect which is very similar to Slovene. However all other dialects spoken in Croatia are not mutually inteligible with Slovene.

[Roy]

No, kaj is derived from *kъjь.
In Russian it exists as кой, archaic word that can mean either how, which, who, or what; dependng on the context.
In Shtokavian, this root evolved into koji, with the meaning which, while in Kajkavian it evolved into kaj, with the meaning what.

The word kaj is also present in dialectal Polish, but means - where? It is used in Upper Silesia, Małopolska, around Kraków, Częstochowa.

[MoroLP]

Kajkavian-speaking Croats plot very close to Czechs and Slovaks, just somewhat more south of them, which is really interesting considering how they don't border at all and there is Hungary, Austria and Slovenia between them.



Therefore together with Slovenes they should be seen as more of an extension of western Slavs in the south, than south Slavs proper.

ADMIXTURE method is not the best to discern such differences. The only sure thing it is saying is that the Slovenes and Kajkavian Croats have not experienced the strong influence of the Roman, and Romanized or non-Romanized Illyrian and Daco-Thracian like other South Slavs.

These weeks in my research found some very interesting and important scientific literature and updated my blog. See especially article's chapter 3.3 citations, information, maps, and latest map that made on the migration of the Slavs:

For interactive on SM.

Considering all scientific fields (archaeology, historiography, linguistics, anthropology, and genetics) it is the most accurate map out there. Indeed, the core of the Northwestern part of the Western South Slavs did not come from Eastern Carpathians-Southeastern Poland but via the Western Carpathians-Moravian Gate. They have an absence of many East Carpathian Slavisms and old Balkanism substratum.

Yes, but I was thinking they are maybe rather artificially West Slavic-like than actual displaced West Slavs. Do you know why? Slovenes and northern Croats are strongly R1a Z280, while western Slavs are strongly R1a M458. So I'd rather say Slovenes and north Croats are a mix of east Slavic tribes, but with some notable Celtic-German-like elements that made them similar to west Slavs plus their Balkanic influence is low.

One of the Eastern Carpathian migrations, the one most related to the Chakavian and Schakavian Croats and Bosnian & Herzegovinians, probably intermixed with their migration then and later and not only, most probably the early West Carpathian Slavs weren't strongly R1a-M458 (in addition lower I2-Y3120 or a bit higher frequency of Dinaric-North subclades) but more similar to East Carpathian counterpart although having a difference in subclades. The West-East division of the Slavs is a bit too simplistic and they probably had different intraregional-interregional and transitional zones with varying subclades ratios.

Another thing that complicates the matter is that if my friend results are representative, than northern chakavian speakers are also not far from west Slavs and in Kajkavian/Slovenian cluster. As far as I know, chakavian is not similar to west Slavic languages but it has some very arhaic old Slavic features that are resembling eastern Slavic.

Again, ADMIXTURE is not the best method to deduce such conclusions as rather speaks about the new Slavic adstratum-old Balkan substratum ratio (although could be indicative since the Eastern Carpathians probably had some old Balkan substratum and early Slavs partly obtained and brought it in addition of getting in contact with it in the Balkans).

Due to geographic proximity dialects have transitions with neighboring dialects. North Chakavian is definitely closer to Kajkavian and Slovene dialects than Middle and Southern Chakavian. I believe that in ADMIXTURE there is probably a difference between North Chakavian and migrant Middle Chakavian and South Chakavian. Chakavian also has some West Slavic influence, but it is minor compared to Kajkavian and Slovene. For example, West Slavic and East Slavic are a bit simplistic and fictional divisions that cannot be taken for granted and the same is about Chakavian, Kajkavian, and Shtokavian more correctly Schakavian i.e. Western Shtokavian and Eastern Shtokavian dialect groups as well as the Slovene language which is primarily divided between (North)Eastern and (South)Western Slovene dialect groups and so on.

[Jana]

Great post Moro.

ADMIXTURE method is not the best to discern such differences. The only sure thing it is saying is that the Slovenes and Kajkavian Croats have not experienced the strong influence of the Roman, and Romanized or non-Romanized Illyrian and Daco-Thracian like other South Slavs.

I'd just disagree with this. Slovenes and NW Croats don't seem more Slavic than Bosnians for example, it's just that their pre-Slavic part is rather different and significantly less southern than that of Balkan Slavs.
There are unreleased Slovenian IA samples who iirc are between Croatian IA (north Italian-like) and IA French (Gaulish). Very central European, and quite different from Thracian-Greek cline for example.

[MoroLP]

...it's just that their pre-Slavic part is rather different and significantly less southern than that of Balkan Slavs. There are unreleased Slovenian IA samples who iirc are between Croatian IA (north Italian-like) and IA French (Gaulish). Very central European, and quite different from Thracian-Greek cline for example.

Well, that's basically saying the same thing but differently