The Romanian-Albanian Linguistic Connection

[lumas]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

Your main Paleo-Balkan clade is E-V13 which I showed here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...on-South-Slavs

So not exactly much of an assimilation you did, mostly assimilated a bunch of Roman colonist transplants.

Even regions like Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece have high E-V13. You and other Slavs have insignificant J2b2-L283 and R1b unlike Albanians associated with Illyrians.

Nothing suggests Albanians originated in any kind of transition zone simply because they carry E-V13 when they show high continuity with Iron Age Western Balkans, we already have some of the most numerous Albanian lineages in a single site in Iron Age Albania:

''I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.

R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.''

With your logic you could argue the same basis for any other group of people that today carry this lineage.

Today in many regions these Illyrian lineages make up 40%-50%, this cannot be a coincidence, you're the one who needs to explain this, nothing suggests any of these lineages came from Balkan interior with E-V13 whatsoever or that E-V13 is a proto-Albanian marker. This is just something you made up which you're the one who needs to prove.


Albanian is related to Messapic / Iapygian and we see the same lineages there.

[Varda]

Your main Paleo-Balkan clade is E-V13 which I showed here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...on-South-Slavs

So not exactly much of an assimilation you did, mostly assimilated a bunch of Roman colonist transplants.

Even regions like Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece have high E-V13. You and other Slavs have insignificant J2b2-L283 and R1b unlike Albanians associated with Illyrians.

Nothing suggests Albanians originated in any kind of transition zone simply because they carry E-V13 when they show high continuity with Iron Age Western Balkans, we already have some of the most numerous Albanian lineages in a single site in Iron Age Albania:




With your logic you could argue the same basis for any other group of people that today carry this lineage.

Today in many regions these Illyrian lineages make up 40%-50%, this cannot be a coincidence, you're the one who needs to explain this, nothing suggests any of these lineages came from Balkan interior with E-V13 whatsoever or that E-V13 is a proto-Albanian marker. This is just something you made up which you're the one who needs to prove.


Albanian is related to Messapic / Iapygian and we see the same lineages there.

You are another sock of mentally ill banned Shiptar troll Baki/Wizz/Batman/Bart0s/Arif.

[lumas]

There is no connection. Romanian has mostly Albanian influence, words dating to Late Roman antiquity. And it suggests they originated in the Southern/Central Balkans and a proto-Albanian expansion. You need to prove why some of the most numerous Albanian lineages were found in Iron Age Northern Albania in a single site. R-PF7563 also which hasn't been found anywhere else either. Nothing suggests any of these ever came with E-V13. You need to explain why E-V13 is your most common pre-Slavic marker and why these others are numerous Albanian lineages.

[lumas]

''The Albanoi (Ancient Greek: Ἀλβανοί, Albanoi; Latin: Albani) were an Illyrian tribe. They were possibly first mentioned by Hecataeus of Miletus (550-476 BCE) under the name Abroi. Ptolemy (200-118 BCE) is the first authors who mentions them under the name Albanoi. Their central settlement was called Albanopolis (Ἀλβανόπολις) and was located roughly between the Mat and Shkumbin rivers, in central Albania. Zgërdhesh has been identified as the likely location of Albanopolis. Stephanus of Byzantium who reproduced Hecataeus added an entry for another settlement named Arbon in Illyria whose inhabitants were called Arbonioi or Arbonites. Another Arbon which may have been located in central Albania in the same region as Albanopolis was recorded by Polybius. John of Nikiû wrote in the 7th century CE about a people known as Arbanitai in the Greek translation of the manuscript, who have been identified as the same people as the Albanoi.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi



Waiting for explanation.



We got a bunch of Y-DNA from Illyrians, names etc. Albanian influence into Romanian suggests a proto-Albanian expansion and a southern Balkan origin of Romanian.


E-V13 was not found in Illyrians because it is not a proto-Albanian marker of course. Today it is your main pre-Slavic lineage. Some Y-DNA spread across the Balkans. Who even knows how it was picked up, does not even peak in modern Vlachs.



Suggest to make some arguments.

[lumas]

Albanians are far from being descended from Illyrians only in their Paleo Balkan part, they have heavy Thracian admixture. E-V13 is absent in Illyrians so far but heavily present in Thracians.
Dacians were subset of Thracians so that might have been the connection.

Proto-Albanians were Illyrians R1b+J2b2, same lineages is also what we see in Iron Age Albania and among Iapygians , insigificant among your people, your main Paleo-Balkan lineage is E-V13 . You cannot explain why these lineages exist today and have the highest diversity there. You are nothing but some butthurt biased person that has no arguments and is butthurt proto-Albanians came from these people, that is exactly what it is. It was hilarious how you thumbed up that Brazilian nut case in the other thread , you people are nuts, ignore actual genetic evidence.


Albanian could of never come from Thracian:

The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.

And in any case, it is increasingly apparent that the whole satem/centum classification system does not correspond to the fundamental distinguishing features of the Indo-European languages: it may be the linguists' equivalent of one of those classifications of mammals by eighteenth-century biologists, which modern scientists have had to discard. [46] Another technical (and much more speculative) argument for identifying early Albanian with Thracian was put forward by the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev, who divided Thracian into two languages, one north-western, the other south-eastern, and argued on the basis of consonantal changes that Albanian must have come from the north-western one. But his arguments (at least in relation to the supposed Albanian connection) have been thoroughly dismantled by other scholars.

- Malcolm






Keep barking you propagandist , it is game over. CHECKMATE .

[lumas]

I guess Greeks must come from Thracian Moesi too since they have 30% E-V13 ? We know Ancient Greeks were J2a

[Speed]

The Albanian language was certainly spoken or originated in the Central Balkans and some of it's speakers moved also into the coastal area of the Balkans before the arrival of Slavs which caused the dialect split, you even have toponyms in Croatia such as Ragusa (Rush) which were taken from Latin speakers and not Croats.

This is further proof of the auctochthony of the Albanians in the regions of Kosova, Montenegro and Macedonia. Some of the ancient names of these areas are preserved as appellatives in the Albanian language. For example, the name Dardania itself (the territory of contemporary Kosova was part of the ancient Kingdom known by that name) is explained with the Albanian Dardhë. Similarly, the name of Ulqin, from the ancient name Ulcinium is linked by the scientists to the word ulk, ujk, of the Albanian language. Other ancient toponyms that belong to the Albanian territories in the former Yugoslavia have evolved in accordance to the historical phonetic rules of the Albanian language. Such cases are Naissus-Nish, Scupi-Shkup, Astibos-Shtip, Scardus-Shar, Ulpiana-Lipjan and many more. The explanation of why these ancient names have arrived to us in the form they did, is that these territories have been inhabited by Albanians continuously and not intermittingly. The presence of an Albanian speaking population has been preserved mostly in the names of the towns. This evidence demonstrates that the Albanian population could not have been made up of shepherds sheltered in the highlands or the mountains. Quite on the contrary, that population was urbanized and apparently with an advanced standard of living for its time.

Among other factors, the ancient toponomastic data, such as the contemporary names of places used by Slavs, which are explainable only through the phonetic rules of the ancient Albanian language, has convinced scientists that these territories were inhabited by Albanians. Distinguished linguists such as Norbert Jokl, Gustav Weygand, and Petrovici, and even some Yugoslav scholars like Henrik Baric and others, have argued that it was precisely the Dardania, defined as an enclave by the use of the ancient names such as Nish, Shkup, Shtip that was one of the centers of the formation of the Albanian people.

Although sometimes he tends to overestimate the role played by the Roman-Romanian population in the Balkans, Petrovici has affirmed that “the population found by the Slavs in the Eastern region of contemporary Serbia was not Romanized.” One of the arguments brought by Petrovici to support his theory are the contemporary names of the cities mentioned above. Linguists like Van Wejk have concluded that according to the toponymical arguments, the separation of the Serbs and Bulgarians from a non-Slavic population in the early Middle Ages, could be explained only with the presence of the Albanian population in these areas. According to him, the presence of a population which had Romanic origins belonged to a later phase of the Slav expansion. Some of these scholars, particularly Henrik Baric, have convincingly demonstrated this through the study of the ancient and medieval onomastic of the Dardania. Examining these ancient toponyms, Baric argues that,

“the phonetic characteristics show that they are ancient names that Southern Slavs have taken through the Albanian language. The reason for making this argument is that in these toponyms we find that the phonetic changes were performed before the arrival of the Southern Slavs in the historic territories of the Albanians.”

As we can see, Dardania was a center of formation for the Albanian ethnie and the Albanian language; an enclave where the Albanian language evolved without suffering the influence of the Slav languages surrounding it. Many scientists explain the intensive contacts between the Albanian and Romanian languages precisely through the ancient and the uninterrupted presence of Albanians in these areas. Under these conditions, the expansion of the Serb State in Kosova, during the twelve century onward was by no means a ‘liberation’ of the Serb lands but an annexation and occupation of Albanian territories.

On the Autochthony of Albanians in Kosova and the Postulated Massive Serb Migration at the End of the XVIIth Century
Selami Pulaha
Institute of History
The Albanian Academy of Sciences

[Speed]

Ulkinion -> Ulqin
Drivastum -> Drisht
Lissus -> Lezhe
Barbanna -> Bune
Drinus -> Drin
Mathis -> Mat
Dyrrachium -> Durres
Scodra -> Shkoder
Albanoi -> Arbanon

And the mountain bordering Kosovo-Albania Scardus -> Shar


Literally none of the coastal towns were taken from Slavs even there. So a Roman or post-Roman migration from the Central Balkans before the arrival of Slavs at least for some of it's speakers if Matzingers theory is correct . Some wave of speakers came later post-Slavic migrations. And these migrations didn't occur in only one direction but the other way around too. So you had Albanian speakers in both West-Central Balkans. Some also moved into Croatia and Romania and Bulgaria, Greece etc.


In the central Balkans these developed from Albanian Naissus -> Nish, Scupi -> Shkup, Astibos -> Shtip, Vicianum .-> Vushtrri , Ulpiana -> Lipjan , Petrizen -> Prizren possibly and more that I cannot think of now.

[Speed]

.....

[Sarmale]

I believe there is a special connection between them that isn't shared by other languages. What exactly the nature of that connection is, we don't know for sure. But there was clearly some period of closer co-existence in the past, probably in Central Balkans when proto-Romanian speakers were spread out around there. I don't think it's just from some Daco-Illyrian substratum. Also, the Latin/Romance words shared between them have consistent correspondences. I think it's possible that both people either were more widespread in the past or that they were not exactly in the same place as today and moved.