Old Prussian/Baltic/Polish architecture

[Peterski]

Exactly. Pls keep this "confession" in mind. So no reason for exaggerated krzyzacy tales for later periods.

They still tried to take Samogitia (to connect Prussia and Livonia) and Land of Dobrzyn, but against Poland there were not many invasions after ca. 1350. Against Lithuania there were numerous raids, but Lithuanians counter-raided just as strongly.

My main point was that they were not invading into Central Poland let alone into Southern Poland.

[Peterski]

(...)

This map shows the Teutonic Order's territory as of 1300 ("Deutscher Orden in Europa 1300"):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uropa_1300.png

[what I like about this map is that it shows how many outposts they had in Western Europe - they added a lot of wealth & manpower]



^^^ If they remained in this territorial shape, probably the conflict with Poland would never start.

But as you know, they took Pomerelia from Poland in 1308-1309 and cut Poland off from the sea.

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I wonder what would have happened if they never abandoned Burzenland and never went to Northern Europe.

[rothaer]

(...) I wonder what would have happened if they never abandoned Burzenland and never went to Northern Europe.

Likely more German settlement power would have been directed into Pomerania and Silesia. Maybe all would have been tight German till Danzig inclusive, i. e. a Polish corridor would not have existed and you would have been even more clearly landlocked.

Btw. Venice was no outpost, but even the capital of Deutscher Orden before it came to West Prussia.

[Peterski]

Likely more German settlement power would have been directed into Pomerania and Silesia.

Rather into Burzenland. Don't you think that settlers who went to Prussia would instead go to Burzenland (and surrounding areas - Transylvania, etc.).

There would have been a German-speaking state at the Black Sea coast, populated by German settlers.

Maybe all would have been tight German till Danzig inclusive, i. e. a Polish corridor would not have existed and you would have been even more clearly landlocked.

I very much doubt it because I don't think there was even a single region that remained in the Polish Kingdom and at the same time became German-speaking - in other words, Germanization was successful only in provinces politically lost by the Polish Crown and detached from it. If the Teutons stayed in Burzenland, Poland would have never lost Gdansk, Pomerelia and Kulmerland, so IMO there would have been much fewer - not more - of German settlers coming to these regions.

As for the Polish Corridor - even Eastern Pommern was Germanized only after 1700s-1800s, and not fully (because Kashubian minority still persisted there into the 20th century), despite being politically mostly under German control since the Middle Ages. Here is a nice map showing the dates of the termination of Polish/Kashub language sermons in parishes of Eastern Pommern. The last Lutheran parish in Pommern which terminated Slavic sermons was Główczyce (Glowitz) in 1886 (just 60 years before that - in 1829 - the Glowitz parish was still majority Slavic-populated: 4848 inhabitants, with 3297 Wends vs. 1551 Germans):



^^^
So if even East Pommern was Slavic until recently, I doubt that without the existence of Prussia there would have been stronger Germanization in Pomerelia.

Here is another map showing the extend of Kashubian-majority area ca. year 1660 - area with green stripes:



Without Teutonic Prussia there would be no Albrecht Hohenzollern and who knows maybe without him, Protestantism would have failed in Europe (due to a much more successful Counter-Reformation).

But what about Teutonic knights expanding from Burzenland towards the Black Sea and creating a German-populated kingdom there?

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As for Poland, it is very likely that Poland would have reintegrated Silesia in the 1300s or 1400s if there were no Teutons in Prussia (they diverted Polish efforts to the north and away from the reunification of Silesian duchies with the rest of Poland).

[rothaer]

Rather into Burzenland. Don't you think that settlers who went to Prussia would instead go to Burzenland (and surrounding areas - Transylvania, etc.). (...)

The Teutonic Order got kicked out from Burzenland immediately when the Hungarian king understood what was about to happen (the formation of an own state). My answer just referred to that the Teutonic order never would have come to West Prussia. (You maybe can comment that scenario too.) But I now see that your question also presupposed that it would not have left Burzenland.

Yes, the Teutonic Orders would have attracted German settlers to Burzenland and likely eventually have formed a state together with Transsylvanian Saxons. That state would have been rather strong and also well protected by the Carpaths. It could have been like a revival of the Gepid Empire. I do not think that the Teutonic Order would have expanded to the Black Sea. That would hardly have been defensible and also it would have incorporated to much ethnicities that are too far away from how Germans would like to have a state organised. (The Old Prussians, Lithuanians and some Masurs are all closer to Germans, which implies that a bigger amount could be assimilated without changing the character of the state too much.) The further development would very much depend on whether the Hungarians could subdue such a German state or not. The later Turks would not have managed.

But back to Pomerelia nevertheless. As you know most East Prussians are low German speakers, indicating that is was about low German settlers. Now, the Teutonic order would for sure not have attracted Low German settlers (but other ones) to Burzenland. The Teutonic order had no connection to Northern Germany at all. So the questeion remains what these Low German settlers, that came to East Prussia would have done instead. And in this context they could well instead have colonised the Eastern parts of later Provinz Pommern (your beloved Stolp and Lauenburg-Bütow) and Pomerelia.

An attraction of German settlers to Burzenland would have been at expense on other German settlement powers, but not at expense of the North German ones.

[rothaer]

Without Teutonic Prussia there would be no Albrecht Hohenzollern and who knows maybe without him, Protestantism would have failed in Europe (due to a much more successful Counter-Reformation).

Well, Transsylvania-Burzenland could instead have become an early and strong protestant state, making the whole of Hungary, that was in between Transsylvania and protestant Bohemia/Moravia (at that time), protestant.

As for Poland, it is very likely that Poland would have reintegrated Silesia in the 1300s or 1400s if there were no Teutons in Prussia (they diverted Polish efforts to the north and away from the reunification of Silesian duchies with the rest of Poland).

Well, I'm not sure. Poland got the whole German power of Royal Prussia. All that would not have been. A Poland, untouched by Germans, would have been rather backward and much weaker. A lot of these German forces that were attracted by the Teutonic order would have been available in Eastern German colonisation areas anyhow. I happen to know relatives of me (von Raussendorf), that were knights in Silesia and went to the Teutonic Order for some survive at abt. 1410 and later returned. They would even have been more rested and fit if they could have fought Polaks directly in Silesia.

But back to the north coast. You know that Pomerania was diveded into Pommern-Stettin and Pommern-Danzig. The first mentioned entity got Germanised and the second not. But if there would have been more German settlers for Pomerania, Pommern-Danzig (Pomerelia) would maybe have been Germanised too. It did not lack very much. Poland would then never have got north of the Netze/Notec river even. For your imagination: Subtract all what you call Pomorze. Poles would then just have known of the existence of the Baltic Sea from German tourist guides.

[Peterski]

As you know most East Prussians are low German speakers, indicating that is was about low German settlers.

You know what this is very tricky.

Because East Prussians who are Low German speakers include descendants of Germanized Lithuanians (all of former Kleinlitauen is Low German). But if we look at Low German vs. High German area in East Prussia ca. year 1800 [when Kleinlitauen was still Lithuanian-speaking], the proportion was more favourable for High Germans. I will calculate this by adding up population of German-speaking counties (I will exclude Kleinlitauen) from early 1800s data.

[Peterski]

BTW, even if the Teutonic Order stayed in Burzenland, the Livonian Crusade would have still taken place, because it started earlier:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Crusade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livoni...s_of_the_Sword

Thus probably a large amount of Germans who went to Prussia OTL, would have went to Livonia (Estonia and Latvia) in this ATL.

OTL = our (real) history timeline
ATL = alternate history timeline

What you can expect in this ATL is a Germanization of Estonians and Latvians (which happened to Old Prussians in our timeline).

Thousands of German settlers who in OTL went to Prussia and Pomerelia, would in ATL go mainly to Latvia and Estonia (Livonia).

I do not think that the Teutonic Order would have expanded to the Black Sea. That would hardly have been defensible and also it would have incorporated to much ethnicities that are too far away from how Germans would like to have a state organised. (The Old Prussians, Lithuanians and some Masurs are all closer to Germans, which implies that a bigger amount could be assimilated without changing the character of the state too much.)

Old Prussians, Kleinlitauen & Masuria had a much higher population density than wilderness areas near the Black Sea at that time.

These areas were controlled mainly by the Cumans in the early 1200s (see the map below), I don't think Germans would assimilate them - other Europeans, such as Russians and Ukrainians, also did not assimilate nomadic populations (Tatars etc.) after they conquered the Pontic Steppe, AFAIK.





As for the Prussian Crusade:

Between 1/3 and 1/2 of Old Prussians perished or fled/were expelled during the crusade (years 1218-1283).

In the Black Sea crusade we can assume that losses of the Cumans & other locals would have been higher.

[rothaer]

BTW, even if the Teutonic Order stayed in Burzenland, the Livonian Crusade would have still taken place, because it started earlier:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Crusade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livoni...s_of_the_Sword

Thus probably a large amount of Germans who went to Prussia OTL, would have went to Livonia (Estonia and Latvia) in this ATL.

OTL = our (real) history timeline
ATL = alternate history timeline

What you can expect in this ATL is a Germanization of Estonians and Latvians (which happened to Old Prussians in our timeline).

Thousands of German settlers who in OTL went to Prussia and Pomerelia, would in ATL go mainly to Latvia and Estonia (Livonia).



Old Prussians, Kleinlitauen & Masuria had a much higher population density than wilderness areas near the Black Sea at that time.

These areas were controlled mainly by the Cumans in the early 1200s (see the map below), I don't think Germans would assimilate them - other Europeans, such as Russians and Ukrainians, also did not assimilate nomadic populations (Tatars etc.) after they conquered the Pontic Steppe, AFAIK.





As for the Prussian Crusade:

Between 1/3 and 1/2 of Old Prussians perished or fled/were expelled during the crusade (years 1218-1283).

In the Black Sea crusade we can assume that losses of the Cumans & other locals would have been higher.

A good post.

But as for North German settlers: There was hardly any rural German settlement in the Baltic states (except nobles, but they were no peasants). It's most nearby if they would have gone to Pomerania.

Burzenland looks topographically as a castle itself. It's an incredible place. I wonder if it was ever intended to take any of the Cuman areas. Not sure if medieval knights were suitable to at all fight in a steppe environment.

[Peterski]

But as for North German settlers: There was hardly any rural German settlement in the Baltic states (except nobles, but they were no peasants).

And why exactly was that the case?

Probably because no settlers were available / left.

In our ATL, more would be available to go there.

But back to the north coast. You know that Pomerania was diveded into Pommern-Stettin and Pommern-Danzig.

Yes and at the beginning the dividing line between them was west of Sławno (Schlawe), only later it shifted to the east. Here is the situation as of 1250 (it also shows which part of Prussia the Teutonic Order conquered until 1250 - of course later Old Prussians rebelled and pushed them back westward, only with great difficulty the Prussian uprising was eventually defeated):



^^^
Granted as a fief by Konrad of Mazovia = Chełmno Land.