Do Iberians have any genuine Celtic ancestry?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Possibly the ones that were found in what used to be celtic speaking areas. Iberos(non celtic speakers) didnt seem to have been very diferent geneticly from the celtic speakers and Lusitanians(non celtic indo europeans). Only Iberos kept their neolithic tongue for some reason.Maybe because of a more urbanised way of life.

Samples from Celtic speaking areas

ESP_LBA:I2469___BC_876___Coverage_18.72%,0.120652,0.149283,0.05242,-0.00323,0.063704,0.002231,-0.00564,0.010153,0.026179,0.042643,-7.96E-03,-3.00E-04,-0.023488,-0.0139,0.010858,0.023071,0.009257,0.002787,-0.003142,0.009004,0.006738,-0.009892,-0.012941,-0.018195,-0.008502
ESP_LIA:I19987___BC_63___Coverage_27.29%,0.125205,0.156392,0.06675,0.000323,0.050471,0,-0.002115,0.009461,0.031497,0.04319,-0.00682,0.008992,-0.024083,-0.019955,0.016151,-0.008618,-0.011474,0.009375,-0.004902,-0.01113,0.015348,0.000247,-0.010353,-0.02663,-0.003592
ESP_LIA:I19991___BC_100___Coverage_34.28%,0.126344,0.15436,0.059585,0.011305,0.055395,-0.001394,-0.000235,0.005538,0.034155,0.042643,0.004709,0.008692,-0.02334,-0.017616,0.010993,0.017369,0.001956,0.001014,0.000377,-0.007003,0.010981,0.000495,-0.005176,-0.006145,0.002036
ESP_LIA_low_res:I19988___BC_100___Coverage_12.20%,0.124067,0.166547,0.071276,0.004199,0.063089,-0.006136,0.0047,0.01523,0.036405,0.040456,-1.10E-02,3.00E-04,-0.020069,-0.014313,0.019815,-0.010872,-0.007953,0.015456,-0.002388,-0.004502,0.012852,-0.004946,-0.016638,-0.033137,-0.002155
ESP_LIA_low_res:I19990___BC_86___Coverage_9.75%,0.126344,0.149283,0.057699,0.000323,0.07109,0.010319,0.006345,0.003,0.03661,0.059773,-0.019811,-0.00045,-0.025421,-0.008395,0.005157,-0.017634,-0.013038,0.006968,-0.00993,0.007253,0.016221,0.001484,-0.016269,-0.004579,0.003473
Iberia_North_IA:I3758___BC_276___Coverage_74.67%,0.125205,0.146236,0.06675,0.013889,0.053241,0.003347,-0.004465,0.002308,0.030474,0.034989,0.001624,0.008393,-0.017691,-0.00812,0.013843,-0.007292,-0.02047,0.00114,-0.00352,-0.002751,0.003494,0.000618,-0.008134,-0.016508,-0.002994
Iberia_North_IA:I3759___BC_272___Coverage_62.92%,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0.009044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.003268,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221

Average

Celtiberian?,0.124717429,0.151749143,0.062548,0.005121857,0.059967286,0.001673429,-0.000537143,0.007483143,0.031,0.042669,-0.006466571,0.004988429,-0.021470857,-0.013034857,0.012059571,0.000492714,-0.005401429,0.005339,-0.002891,-0.001125429,0.011230143,-0.001130429,-0.010792857,-0.016043286,-0.002993571

Distances

Distance to:	Celtiberian?
0.01850560	Basque_French
0.02021136	Basque_Spanish
0.02246863	Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.02374366	French_South
0.03403477	Spanish_Cantabria
0.03412668	Spanish_Pirineu
0.03496852	Spanish_Castello
0.03521110	Spanish_Navarra
0.03550750	Spanish_Barcelones
0.03605240	Spanish_Cataluna
0.03606524	Spanish_Aragon
0.03707575	Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03717360	Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03731639	Spanish_Valencia
0.03775743	Spanish_Lleida
0.03828158	Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03969980	Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Samples below are from Celtiberian town of Palencia, Castile and León.

The historical origins of the city remain uncertain, but there is archaeological evidence of pre-Roman settlements on the site of the present city, which the Celtiberians called Pallantia. The people who occupied it were the Vacceans: the most cultured of the Celtiberian tribes, agrarian and with a powerful military organisation.

ESP_LIA:I19987___BC_63___Coverage_27.29%,0.125205,0.156392,0.06675,0.000323,0.050471,0,-0.002115,0.009461,0.031497,0.04319,-0.00682,0.008992,-0.024083,-0.019955,0.016151,-0.008618,-0.011474,0.009375,-0.004902,-0.01113,0.015348,0.000247,-0.010353,-0.02663,-0.003592
ESP_LIA:I19991___BC_100___Coverage_34.28%,0.126344,0.15436,0.059585,0.011305,0.055395,-0.001394,-0.000235,0.005538,0.034155,0.042643,0.004709,0.008692,-0.02334,-0.017616,0.010993,0.017369,0.001956,0.001014,0.000377,-0.007003,0.010981,0.000495,-0.005176,-0.006145,0.002036
ESP_LIA_low_res:I19988___BC_100___Coverage_12.20%,0.124067,0.166547,0.071276,0.004199,0.063089,-0.006136,0.0047,0.01523,0.036405,0.040456,-1.10E-02,3.00E-04,-0.020069,-0.014313,0.019815,-0.010872,-0.007953,0.015456,-0.002388,-0.004502,0.012852,-0.004946,-0.016638,-0.033137,-0.002155
ESP_LIA_low_res:I19990___BC_86___Coverage_9.75%,0.126344,0.149283,0.057699,0.000323,0.07109,0.010319,0.006345,0.003,0.03661,0.059773,-0.019811,-0.00045,-0.025421,-0.008395,0.005157,-0.017634,-0.013038,0.006968,-0.00993,0.007253,0.016221,0.001484,-0.016269,-0.004579,0.003473

Average

Palencia_LIA,0.12549,0.1566455,0.0638275,0.0040375,0.06001125,0.00069725,0.00217375,0.00830725,0.03466675,0.0465155,-0.0082305,0.0043835,-0.02322825,-0.01506975,0.013029,-0.00493875,-0.00762725,0.00820325,-0.00421075,-0.0038455,0.0138505,-0.00068,-0.012109,-0.01762275,-0.0000595

Distances

Distance to:	Palencia_LIA
0.02225779	Basque_French
0.02489438	Basque_Spanish
0.02603346	Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.03191338	French_South
0.04022371	Spanish_Cantabria
0.04086577	Spanish_Navarra
0.04096545	Spanish_Pirineu
0.04232045	Spanish_Aragon
0.04233830	Spanish_Castello
0.04240874	Spanish_Barcelones
0.04350154	Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04392928	Spanish_Cataluna
0.04418061	Spanish_Valencia
0.04471948	Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04478146	Spanish_Lleida
0.04496746	Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04562957	Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04621834	Spanish_Asturias
0.04714025	Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04888082	Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04951562	Spanish_Penedes
0.04981943	Spanish_Alacant
0.04994956	Spanish_Girona

[Leto]

Yes, Galicia is sometimes considered a 'Celtic nation'. They do share a number of similarities with Ireland.

[SangreAzul]

Yes, I am pure Celtic Iberian and every correct Iberian is too... If you lack the Celtic I can know right away it's simple. We are the true celts and always were

[Russki]

Yes, Galicia is sometimes considered a 'Celtic nation'. They do share a number of similarities with Ireland.

Ireland is not genetically Celtic, but culturally it is.

I'm talking about genuine Celtic ancestry.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Iberian samples from 1000 BC to 1 AD

ESP_EIA_Tartessian:I12171___BC_658___Coverage_31.74%,0.121791,0.14319,0.05242,-0.009367,0.062165,-0.003068,0.002115,0.010153,0.042132,0.048293,0.00406,0.009292,-0.027056,-0.022845,0.004479,0.011005,0.009388,-0.003547,0.003142,0.005628,0.011605,-0.002473,-0.005546,-0.023859,-0.006227
ESP_IA:I3320___BC_200___Coverage_70.23%,0.119514,0.145221,0.055814,0.00323,0.061242,-0.005299,-0.003995,0.004154,0.029042,0.04647,-0.003573,0.011839,-0.017988,-0.021194,0.005836,0.008088,0.014994,-0.004434,0.001383,0.001376,0.004118,-0.008037,0.002342,-0.009278,0.005389
ESP_IA_low_res:I3321_d___BC_200___Coverage_11.24%,0.114961,0.164516,0.064488,0.026163,0.068628,-0.00502,0.011281,-0.004384,0.031292,0.041914,-0.009094,0.015137,-0.036868,-0.014588,-0.0038,0.016309,0.001043,0.006208,-0.001006,-0.013131,0.011979,0.002226,0.003574,-0.016749,-0.01904
ESP_IA_low_res:I19722___BC_397___Coverage_8.88%,0.132035,0.148267,0.05506,0.021964,0.05201,0.00251,-0.000705,0.014076,0.036405,0.037723,1.72E-02,-3.00E-04,-0.029881,-0.018166,0.023072,0.024131,-0.005346,-0.010262,-0.000628,-0.002876,0.010482,0.002844,-0.0053,0.003615,0
ESP_LBA:I2469___BC_876___Coverage_18.72%,0.120652,0.149283,0.05242,-0.00323,0.063704,0.002231,-0.00564,0.010153,0.026179,0.042643,-7.96E-03,-3.00E-04,-0.023488,-0.0139,0.010858,0.023071,0.009257,0.002787,-0.003142,0.009004,0.006738,-0.009892,-0.012941,-0.018195,-0.008502
ESP_LIA:I19987___BC_63___Coverage_27.29%,0.125205,0.156392,0.06675,0.000323,0.050471,0,-0.002115,0.009461,0.031497,0.04319,-0.00682,0.008992,-0.024083,-0.019955,0.016151,-0.008618,-0.011474,0.009375,-0.004902,-0.01113,0.015348,0.000247,-0.010353,-0.02663,-0.003592
ESP_LIA:I19991___BC_100___Coverage_34.28%,0.126344,0.15436,0.059585,0.011305,0.055395,-0.001394,-0.000235,0.005538,0.034155,0.042643,0.004709,0.008692,-0.02334,-0.017616,0.010993,0.017369,0.001956,0.001014,0.000377,-0.007003,0.010981,0.000495,-0.005176,-0.006145,0.002036
ESP_LIA_low_res:I19988___BC_100___Coverage_12.20%,0.124067,0.166547,0.071276,0.004199,0.063089,-0.006136,0.0047,0.01523,0.036405,0.040456,-1.10E-02,3.00E-04,-0.020069,-0.014313,0.019815,-0.010872,-0.007953,0.015456,-0.002388,-0.004502,0.012852,-0.004946,-0.016638,-0.033137,-0.002155
ESP_LIA_low_res:I19990___BC_86___Coverage_9.75%,0.126344,0.149283,0.057699,0.000323,0.07109,0.010319,0.006345,0.003,0.03661,0.059773,-0.019811,-0.00045,-0.025421,-0.008395,0.005157,-0.017634,-0.013038,0.006968,-0.00993,0.007253,0.016221,0.001484,-0.016269,-0.004579,0.003473
ESP_Menorca_LBA_new:I3315___BC_859___Coverage_69.09%,0.120652,0.151314,0.056191,0.000646,0.061242,-0.000279,-0.001645,0.002077,0.03886,0.052302,-0.007632,0.010641,-0.024975,-0.012248,0.014251,0.003713,0.001565,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.003502,-0.003119,0.00272,-0.004067,-0.014339,0.00012
Iberia_East_IA:I3320___BC_200___Coverage_34.44%,0.118376,0.152329,0.051288,0.004522,0.064935,-0.003347,-0.014101,0.005538,0.030679,0.049022,-0.002273,0.014237,-0.017245,-0.017203,0.005293,0.001989,0.012386,-0.005068,-0.001006,-0.004377,0.006863,0.000124,0.001972,-0.012893,-0.000359
Iberia_East_IA:I3321___BC_200___Coverage_32.16%,0.126344,0.157407,0.065619,0.008075,0.062781,-0.013387,0.002115,0.007846,0.039064,0.045923,-0.000487,0.008692,-0.032111,-0.025873,0.011129,0.008221,0.007562,0.010642,0.007919,-0.00988,0.013601,-0.008779,-0.002465,-0.023859,-0.007544
Iberia_East_IA:I3322___BC_550___Coverage_53.57%,0.124067,0.152329,0.05506,0.006137,0.06155,-0.006972,0.003055,0.002769,0.037837,0.055946,-0.003735,0.013188,-0.020367,-0.009083,0.017508,-0.013126,-0.023078,0.005068,0.004902,-0.006753,0.006863,0.000495,-0.005546,-0.018677,0.001437
Iberia_East_IA:I3323___BC_276___Coverage_25.90%,0.121791,0.15436,0.05242,-0.002261,0.059703,-0.008646,-0.00564,0.003231,0.032928,0.05212,-0.006171,0.011839,-0.031962,-0.003578,0.004343,0.001591,0.011474,0.002154,-0.003142,-0.002376,0.002246,0.001607,-0.016392,-0.018195,0.002874
Iberia_East_IA:I3324___BC_273___Coverage_21.14%,0.122929,0.131003,0.05506,0.015181,0.059703,0.007809,-0.002585,0.006692,0.019225,0.036083,-0.005846,0.004946,-0.026016,-0.00234,0.00285,0.022938,0.017602,-0.001267,0.01169,-0.008004,-0.00287,0.005564,-0.004067,-0.002048,-0.005269
Iberia_East_IA:I3327___BC_225___Coverage_20.97%,0.124067,0.146236,0.050157,-0.018411,0.042162,-0.001394,-0.00188,0.004154,0.031292,0.054671,-0.016239,0.013638,-0.011447,-0.03069,0.011401,0.025059,0.01708,0.005448,0.004022,0.004252,0.001996,-0.002349,-0.008381,-0.002651,0.002395
Iberia_East_IA:I12410___BC_425___Coverage_69.66%,0.132035,0.146236,0.060339,-0.004845,0.066782,-0.005857,0,0.001385,0.034155,0.050115,-0.001137,0.012589,-0.025867,-0.012248,0.008822,0.012596,0.022687,-0.001014,-0.00729,0.008879,0.006239,0.007172,-0.009983,-0.013737,-0.001916
Iberia_East_IA:I12879___BC_479___Coverage_23.93%,0.126344,0.151314,0.061848,0.009044,0.061242,0.006414,-0.010105,0.004154,0.014726,0.031162,-0.001786,0.009741,-0.021853,-0.015138,0.001493,-0.014187,-0.011474,-0.003041,0.013324,0.010005,0.009608,-0.004575,-0.01405,-0.007109,-0.000599
Iberia_IA:I4556___BC_600___Coverage_25.45%,0.124067,0.135065,0.065996,0.007752,0.053241,-0.004183,-0.0094,0.004846,0.029247,0.056858,-0.00747,0.012289,-0.015312,-0.01156,0.011943,0.014717,0.026859,0.005574,0.000126,-0.00025,-0.002246,0.002844,-0.006902,-0.026751,-0.004191
Iberia_Menorca_LBA:I3315___BC_859___Coverage_67.96%,0.122929,0.153345,0.054305,0.001615,0.062165,-0.002231,-0.00376,0.002308,0.035178,0.05212,-0.005521,0.013938,-0.026016,-0.016377,0.015065,0.008618,0.002738,-0.004814,-0.004274,-0.004502,-0.001497,0.002473,-0.003821,-0.016147,-0.000599
Iberia_North_IA:I3758___BC_276___Coverage_74.67%,0.125205,0.146236,0.06675,0.013889,0.053241,0.003347,-0.004465,0.002308,0.030474,0.034989,0.001624,0.008393,-0.017691,-0.00812,0.013843,-0.007292,-0.02047,0.00114,-0.00352,-0.002751,0.003494,0.000618,-0.008134,-0.016508,-0.002994
Iberia_North_IA:I3759___BC_272___Coverage_62.92%,0.125205,0.140143,0.063356,0.009044,0.062781,0.003347,-0.00235,0.006692,0.02168,0.034989,-0.006008,0.009292,-0.016204,-0.008945,0.0076,0.007425,0.003912,0.000633,0.003268,0.001251,0.012977,0.004081,-0.006039,-0.007109,-0.009221
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203___BC_200___Coverage_45.52%,0.126344,0.14319,0.051288,0.021641,0.037238,-0.005299,0.00094,0.004846,0.024747,0.026971,-0.003897,0.008992,-0.025272,-0.026011,0.008822,0.004906,0.012126,-0.003547,0.003268,0.003627,0.007487,0.000618,-0.001972,0.004458,-0.00467
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206___BC_153___Coverage_36.33%,0.125205,0.127957,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.006815,0.006231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209___BC_604___Coverage_73.92%,0.12862,0.145221,0.054682,0.013243,0.043393,0.009761,-0.001175,0.006,0.026384,0.033167,-0.006658,0.018434,-0.016501,-0.023121,0.011401,0.004508,0.005085,0.000127,0.003897,-0.009254,0.001123,0.00507,0.002218,-0.009881,0.008263
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214___BC_425___Coverage_46.06%,0.130897,0.138112,0.058454,0.026809,0.046162,0.008367,-0.001175,-0.004154,0.016771,0.030069,-0.001624,0.009741,-0.022299,-0.014588,0.010586,0.00769,0.002868,0.002787,0.003645,0.001376,0.011105,0.006801,-0.00986,-0.012893,0.005628

Average

Iberia_1st_Millennium_BC,0.124461154,0.148032923,0.058163577,0.008298615,0.057194077,-0.000193077,-0.0012925,0.005165538,0.029962731,0.042839462,-0.004189808,0.008790269,-0.022865192,-0.015620154,0.010398269,0.006293,0.003826308,0.001729808,0.000638192,-0.001096577,0.007074115,0.000209346,-0.006484731,-0.0121795,-0.001501385

Distances

Distance to:	Iberia_1st_Millennium_BC
0.01769117	Basque_Spanish
0.01773802	French_South
0.02181564	Basque_French
0.02457705	Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.02681541	Spanish_Castello
0.02758235	Spanish_Cantabria
0.02782657	Spanish_Pirineu
0.02835948	Spanish_Soria
0.02891794	Spanish_La_Rioja
0.02982720	Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02992409	Spanish_Cataluna
0.03070948	Spanish_Navarra
0.03073370	Spanish_Aragon
0.03102380	Spanish_Lleida
0.03156980	Spanish_Barcelones
0.03230806	Spanish_Valencia
0.03333643	Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03387202	Spanish_Girona
0.03400462	Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03405283	Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03430926	Spanish_Penedes
0.03506842	Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03720950	Spanish_Alacant
0.03756563	French_Occitanie
0.03785401	French_Auvergne
0.03866499	Spanish_Baleares
0.03924687	Spanish_Mallorca
0.03935878	Spanish_Galicia

It is clear that there was a reintroduction of the Steppe component in Iberia, probably during Late Antiquity, it would explain why modern Castilians have the same amount or even more of Steppe despite having less WHG.

[gixajo]

Which of these ancient Iberian samples can be called Celtiberian? By the way, I'm pretty sure there is genuine Celtic ancestry, and there may also have been a second Celtic-like influence in late antiquity.

]

The 3 individual samples from La Hoya were individuals of the Berones (Beronii) tribe, and Berones were considered Celtiberians.

La Hoya (Laguardia, Araba/Álava, Basque Country, Spain)
Contact: Armando Llanos
This site was described in Nuñez et al. 2016 (38). We analyzed three adult individuals
from the Celtiberian period of the site.
Ÿ I3757/LHY 142-T: 400–300 BCE
Ÿ I3759/LHY073: 361–195 cal BCE (2195±25 BP, PSUAMS-2078)
Ÿ I3758/LHY136: 365–204 cal BCE (2215±20 BP, PSUAMS-3466)

They have a Basque-type genetic base, similar base than other different individuals from that period and from other parts of Iberian peninsula.

[gixajo]

Iberian samples from 1000 BC to 1 AD

g]

Oh sorry, you know it perfectly.

[gixajo]

But we should differentiate between "Iberian Celts" and "Celtiberians", and probably differences were mainly cultural and not genetical.

The third main group were "Iberians".

With "differences were mainly cultural and not genetical" I mean that most likely we could find more genetic differences between people of the Iberian cultural group than between many geographically closer tribes with different cultural. FOr example many Cantabrians groups considered Celtics with Celtiberians, or southeastern Celtiberians with neighbouring Iberians.

Also many considered as Iberians culturally would have many non-Iberians genetic inputs from different people, specially in the coasts (and not just in the Mediterranean coast,from Eastern Mediterranean peoples, also in the Atlantic, from other parts of Europe and also from NA).

[Damião de Góis]

I don't think it's possible to know just yet. Having celtic ancestry would mean having direct ancestry from celtic iberians, ones fresh from the celtic expansion and not local iberians who happened to speak celtic languages.
I'm not convinced everyone in light blue were celtic speaking basques:



Se we need samples from those people and then we could make models to measure this somehow.

Also the map in the OP is quite funny because it has a border around Portugal, and those borders were only established in the 1200s. It's like they were saying to each other: "Don't go there dude, there will be a country there after some romans, germanic tribes and moors invade."



Celtic expansion looked something more like this: