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Thread: Are Ashkenazi just an isolated, endogamous population of Sicilian jewish converts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nausevar View Post
    I think Ashkenazi Jews may be the result of a first mixing with southern Italians and a second mixing with Germans in the Rhineland (ashkenaz in medioeval hebrew means rhineland, so ashkenazi jews are german jews, they even have german surnames). They later emigrated to eastern europe but didn't intermix with the slavs. From there they massively emigrated to the US and Israel.
    Our model of the AJ admixture history is presented in Fig 7. Under our model, admixture in Europe first happened in Southern Europe, and was followed by a founder event and a minor admixture event (likely) in Eastern Europe. Admixture in Southern Europe possibly occurred in Italy, given the continued presence of Jews there and the proposed Italian source of the early Rhineland Ashkenazi communities [3]. What is perhaps surprising is the timing of the Southern European admixture to ≈24–49 generations ago, since Jews are known to have resided in Italy already since antiquity. This result would imply no gene flow between Jews and local Italian populations almost until the turn of the millennium, either due to endogamy, or because the group that eventually gave rise to contemporary Ashkenazi Jews did not reside in Southern Europe until that time. More detailed and/or alternative interpretations are left for future studies.
    Recent admixture in Northern Europe (Western or Eastern) is consistent with the presence of Ashkenazi Jews in the Rhineland since the 10th century and in Poland since the 13th century. Evidence from the IBD analysis suggests that Eastern European admixture is more likely; however, the results are not decisive. An open question in AJ history is the source of migration to Poland in late Medieval times; various speculations have been proposed, including Western and Central Europe [2, 10]. The uncertainty on whether gene flow from Western Europeans did or did not occur leaves this question open.
    https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006644

    There was another study it was Sardinia, where they were expelled from Rome.

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    Different ethnogenesis, with some of it shared. They just cluster around the same place being half modern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
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    I would expect Ashkenazi jews to have some different admixture from other populations from their base, regardless of what it was, but I just find it really hard to believe that their genetics are a result of anything different than what created other West Asian shifted Southern Europeans. As far as haplogroups go, there are regions of Great Britain with a completely different dominant haplogroup from the rest, yet they still share a lot of autosomal proximity as well as being almost entirely from the same basal population. I wouldn't believe that Ashkenazi are such a recent mix of their ancient components until we can prove for an absolute fact that they are, like for example finding some old samples of their populations displaying the shift over time as has been done with other populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueState View Post
    AFAIK the haplogroup distribution among Siciliand and Ashkenazi Jews suggest different ancestries, but given the fact that both people are a mix of European and old Levantine, they got "fake" proximity

    I'm no genetic specialist but I think IBD sharing tests and haplogroups can answer much better real genetic affinity than just autosomal score
    This is exactly correct.

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    Target: Moldovan_Jewish
    Distance: 1.2554% / 1.25535449 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    64.6 Greek_Athens
    25.9 Jordanian_Christian
    5.7 Algerian
    3.8 Sardinian

    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew
    Distance: 1.2657% / 1.26574017 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    60.5 Greek_Athens
    28.2 Jordanian_Christian
    8.5 Sardinian
    2.8 Algerian

    There are a few possibilities.

    1) they originate from Jews who settled first in Anatolia and mixed with Greeks back in antiquity, later also migrating to Italy and from there to Germany.
    2) They settled in southern Italy under Roman rule and mixed with south Italians and migrated to Germany in the middle ages.
    3) They originate from Jews that settled the Balkans and mixed with Balkan greeks or Illyro-Romans and migrated later to Italy and from there to Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthDutch7991 View Post
    I would expect Ashkenazi jews to have some different admixture from other populations from their base, regardless of what it was, but I just find it really hard to believe that their genetics are a result of anything different than what created other West Asian shifted Southern Europeans. As far as haplogroups go, there are regions of Great Britain with a completely different dominant haplogroup from the rest, yet they still share a lot of autosomal proximity as well as being almost entirely from the same basal population. I wouldn't believe that Ashkenazi are such a recent mix of their ancient components until we can prove for an absolute fact that they are, like for example finding some old samples of their populations displaying the shift over time as has been done with other populations.
    My previous post was not meant to imply that SI and AJ were not related, but simply that AJ were not modern SI converts to Judaism. The proto-population that later gave birth to Italian Jews and southern Italians will have been something similar to the Roman Imperial average.



    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    They could be mainly South Italian converts as well as just displaying a fake proximity. Imo none of these possibilities are yet ruled out. As for not fitting haplogroups: AJ have experienced a strong genetic drift, so the haplogroup proportions are not very enlightening. Not from Christians, but from pagans before Christianity spread.
    Thanks, you said what I wanted to say but better XD

    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    I consider this usual approach actually somewhat biased and too narrow. Because it requires that AJ do not also descend from Syrians, people from the Asia Minor coast, Cypriots and Greek islanders.
    (Pauls letter to the Ephesians implies that there were bulks of indigenous people that had converted to Judaism (and that were now targeted for Christian mission). He figuratively writes that it should be well possible to convert these notable proportions of people who already live "under the law" which in that context just can be understood as the laws of the Old Testament.)
    If you also allow such people in the modelling, you can do well with close to zero Judeans/Samaritans.

    I personally imagine Jews in the Roman Empire in 200 AD to be a basically similar population to the Christians in 200 AD. Both do in the initial core hail from Judea, personally and spiritually. And both do comprise followers from predominantly the eastern part of the Roman Empire.
    Well, I have used Judean Jews as a synonym for a general Levantine ancestry, of course it is impossible to determine with certainty how much, on average, they are descended from the actual Jews of Judea. Anyway, yes, it's messy because there was a lot of mixing with non-Jews, especially with the populations you listed.

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