Origin of the Caucasian (Caucasus) race and its descedants

[Guti]

By the way, speaking about the Northwestern Iranic Parthians, the ARYAN Medo-Persian Empires were all Caucasian/Caucasoid in nature. The founder of the Median Empire was Median King with the name Cyaxares. Cyaxares belonged to a Guto-Median (Umman Manda) lineage. Northwestern Iranic Cyaxares was ARYAN. To this day Kurds see him has the founder of the Kurdish nation. He is very important for the Kurds.

Same can be said about the Aryan Persian Achaemenid Empire. It was also very Caucasian/Caucasoid to its bones. Cyrus the Great had Guto-Median (Cyaxares') blood in him and was a grandson of the last Guto-Median king. He was the founder of the ARYAN Achaemenid Empire. He has been seen by the Persians as the founder of their modern nation.




My main point is that ARYANS who were responsible for many great empires and civilizations and gave birth to modern-day Kurds and Persians belonged to a Caucasian/Caucasoid race. ARYAN Empires belonged to the Aryan Iran_ChL/CHG people!

[gixajo]

Conclusion: Caucasian/Caucasoid race was born when proto-CHG/proto-Iran_Neo mixed with ANE.

Closest people to the proto-Caucasoids are Northwestern Iranic people such as Kurds and native Caucasian (Kawkaz people) such as Georgians.

Europeans are just partly 'Caucasian/Caucasoid' and got most of their 'Caucasoid ancestry' via the Yamnaya people who were mixed with the Caucasoids (CHG/Iran_ChL).

Unfortunately, the premise with which all this that you have exposed starts is not correct,because Caucasian=/=Caucasoid.

[Guti]

Unfortunately, the premise with which all this that you have exposed starts is not correct,because Caucasian=/=Caucasoid.

I don't agree with you.

Native Caucasian (Kawkaz) people are part of the Caucasoid race. So that makes Caucasian = Caucasoid. I have shown you that Caucasoid race is directly related to an area between the western parts of the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. Caucasoid people are CHG/Iran_Neo/Iran_ChL folks. 'caucasus' is even in the name 'Caucasoid'.

All people who are derived from the ancient CHG/Iran_ChL/Iran_Neo folks and still plot very close to them on the academic PCA maps to this day are 'Caucasoids' per definition. ALL Caucasoid folks cluster plot close and belong to the ancient CHG/Iran_CHL peoples. That is why 'Caucasoid' race does exist.



And I wanted to show the following:

It is not really about how you want to name it. Western Iranics such as Kurds and native Caucasians belong to the same CHG/Iran_ChL race. CHG/Iran_ChL are closely related to the Caucasus region. It is actually the most autochthonous component to that region. That's is why I call CHG/Iran_ChL folks Caucasoids.

White/Europid =/= Caucasian/Caucasoid

Second stage PIEan Yamnaya was only partly CHG/Iran_ChL or Caucasoid in nature and that makes people of Europe, mostly Indo-Europeans from the north, just for a very tiny part Caucasian/Caucasoid.

[Zoro]

What do you mean? ANE mammoth hunters were not a dead end. There is a lot ANE ancestry in the Caucasus and Kurdistan. Their ancestry lives on in Northwestern Asians and they contributed to a genepool in the Caucasus and Kurdistan/Iran for about 1/4 in Northwestern Asian ancestry. I think that after 'The Last Glacial Period' (LGP), 12 thousand years ago, some mammoth hunters migrated into the Iranian Plateau, heavily mixed with the locals there and unleashed the Neolithic revolution.

And do you mean Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z94 right? Kurds don't have much of that Y-DNA lineage and that lineage is not that old. And not only just Kurds, but also all other Northwestern Iranic people such as Talysh and Gilakis. I wrote about them here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...92#post7525592

Kurds, like all other Northwestern Iranics, were already 'Western Iranic' Guto-Medes long before Parthian R1a-Z94 arrived in Kurdistan. Northwestern Iranic proto-Medes who were ancestral to all modern Northwestern Iranics predate Parthian and Scythians in Kurdistan. Parthians were just latecomers in Kurdistan compared to the ARYAN Guto-Medes.


Y-DNA haplogroups of Northwestern Iranics. As you can see, Northwestern Iranics aka ARYANS don't have a lot Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z94.

I didn’t see ANE ydna is a dead end. I said Malta Boy ydna is a dead end so far. AG3 and the Tarim Basin mummies are largely ANE but not the same Ydna as Malta.

I agree that Kurds do have ANE from C. Asia via groups that predated the militarized Indo-European invasions but I believe most of their R1a (perhaps not all) is from Indo-Iranian Medes, Parthians and Scythians.

Here are Kurd YDNA maps from various papers (and a couple of blogs). Keep in mind that at the time they did not test for Z93 or Z94 but tested for upstream subckades such as M198 or M417 meaning if you tested those individuals further many would end up Z93 or Z94

[gixajo]

I don't agree with you.

Native Caucasian (Kawkaz) people are part of the Caucasoid race. So that makes Caucasian = Caucasoid. I have shown you that Caucasoid race is directly related to an area between the western parts of the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. Caucasoid people are CHG/Iran_Neo/Iran_ChL folks. 'caucasus' is even in the name 'Caucasoid'.

All people who are derived from the ancient CHG/Iran_ChL/Iran_Neo folks and still plot very close to them on the academic PCA maps to this day are 'Caucasoids' per definition. ALL Caucasoid folks cluster plot close and belong to the ancient CHG/Iran_CHL peoples. That is why 'Caucasoid' race does exist.



And I wanted to show the following:

It is not really about how you want to name it. Western Iranics such as Kurds and native Caucasians belong to the same CHG/Iran_ChL race. CHG/Iran_ChL are closely related to the Caucasus region. It is actually the most autochthonous component to that region. That's is why I call CHG/Iran_ChL folks Caucasoids.

White/Europid =/= Caucasian/Caucasoid

Second stage PIEan Yamnaya was only partly CHG/Iran_ChL or Caucasoid in nature and that makes people of Europe, mostly Indo-Europeans from the north, just for a very tiny part Caucasian/Caucasoid.

I don´t need you to agree with me and it´s not a thing I´ve stablished, just Caucasian=/=Caucasoid, it´s not a matter of tastes or predilection, just they are not the same.

[Guti]

I didn't see ANE ydna is a dead end. I said Malta Boy ydna is a dead end so far. AG3 and the Tarim Basin mummies are largely ANE but not the same Ydna as Malta.

I agree that Kurds do have ANE from C. Asia via groups that predated the militarized Indo-European invasions but I believe most of their R1a (perhaps not all) is from Indo-Iranian Medes, Parthians and Scythians.

Here are Kurd YDNA maps from various papers (and a couple of blogs). Keep in mind that at the time they did not test for Z93 or Z94 but tested for upstream subckades such as M198 or M417 meaning if you tested those individuals further many would end up Z93 or Z94

ANE in Kurds comes mostly from the Iran_ChL Caucasoids.

Kurds are mostly a product of Iran_ChL and Trialeti (Armenia_LMBA) people. Kurds got most of their Steppes ancestry via the Caucasus and not from Central Asia. This is where I don't agree with you.

Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z94 arrived in Kurdistan AFTER the establishment of the Kurdic race. Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z94 is a very young lineage and Kurds don't even that much of it. Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z94 didn't 'bottlenecked' in Kurdistan.

Guto-Medes who were the founders of the Aryan Kurdic race were Iron Age people and came into the existence after Iran_ChL and Trialeti mixed with each other. The Aryan Guto-Medes were just native people in Kurdistan and were in Kurdistan even long before the Parthians came into the existence. Also don't forget that it were the Guto-Medes who were the ancestors of the Parthians.

proto-ARYANS = Iron_Age Northwestern Iranic Guto-Medes
Iron Age Northwestern Iranic Guto-Medes = Iran_ChL + Armenia_LMBA (Trialeti) = proto-Kurds


Kurds = Iron Age Guto-Medes + some minor Parthian and Scythian ancestry that came much later, but nothing very important to take them even into the consideration.

[Guti]

I don´t need you to agree with me and it's not a thing I've stablished, just Caucasian=/=Caucasoid, it´s not a matter of tastes or predilection, just they are not the same.

Do you agree that CHG is related to Iran_ChL and Iran_Neo and that those components are closely related to each other?

I mean Iran_ChL itself is for a HUGE part CHG.


Irn_ChL = 63,1% CHG , while CHG = 71,6% Iran_N



https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/059311v1


CHG, Iran_N and Irn_ChL are people of the same 'Caucasoid' race, all the same.

[gixajo]

I don't agree with you.

Native Caucasian (Kawkaz) people are part of the Caucasoid race. So that makes Caucasian = Caucasoid. I have shown you that Caucasoid race is directly related to an area between the western parts of the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. Caucasoid people are CHG/Iran_Neo/Iran_ChL folks. 'caucasus' is even in the name 'Caucasoid'.

All people who are derived from the ancient CHG/Iran_ChL/Iran_Neo folks and still plot very close to them on the academic PCA maps to this day are 'Caucasoids' per definition. ALL Caucasoid folks cluster plot close and belong to the ancient CHG/Iran_CHL peoples. That is why 'Caucasoid' race does exist.



And I wanted to show the following:

It is not really about how you want to name it. Western Iranics such as Kurds and native Caucasians belong to the same CHG/Iran_ChL race. CHG/Iran_ChL are closely related to the Caucasus region. It is actually the most autochthonous component to that region. That's is why I call CHG/Iran_ChL folks Caucasoids.

White/Europid =/= Caucasian/Caucasoid

Second stage PIEan Yamnaya was only partly CHG/Iran_ChL or Caucasoid in nature and that makes people of Europe, mostly Indo-Europeans from the north, just for a very tiny part Caucasian/Caucasoid.

Caucasoid is an European invented term during XVIII century. Basically they classified "races" in 3 groups: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid, and althought the name makes reference to Caucasus, the suffix -oid point that something "is similar", "looks like" or just "is related or bordering with".

Both terms could be used as synonyms, that´s true, but with the sense of "European looks" (the original term was created to define exactly this), that can be misunderstood as you did, with the real meaning of the term, that is "native people from Caucasus".

It´s simple to understand if you notice that many people from Caucasus (Caucasians) are not exactly Caucasoid, because they show clear Mongoloid features.

But it´s not their fault, it´s the fault of a Central European man who created the term 3 centuries ago.

Native people from Caucasus points more towards Gerogian or Armenians more than to some other peoples from Caucasus that shows some clear "Mongoloid" features.

About this, I would agree with you, than many (probably most of them) Iranians (and also Kurds, and other ethnicities) have more "Caucasoid" look than some nowadays modern "Caucasian" peoples (specially North/Easterners).

Also

Mongoloid=/=Mongolian
Caucasoid=/=Caucasian

About Negroid term, difficult to determine, "negro" is an Spanish word that means "black", and could encompass many ethnicities not related at all, as Australian Aborigines , Papuans, or East Africans , or Western Africans...

[gixajo]

Do you agree that CHG is related to Iran_ChL and Iran_Neo and that those components are closely related to each other?

I mean Iran_ChL itself is for a HUGE part CHG.


Irn_ChL = 63,1% CHG , while CHG = 71,6% Iran_N



https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/059311v1


CHG, Iran_N and Irn_ChL are people of the same 'Caucasoid' race, all the same.

Sorry, but I have not more to add to all this issue just now.

[Guti]

Caucasoid is an European invented term during XVIII century. Basically they classified "races" in 3 groups: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid, and althought the name makes reference to Caucasus, the suffix -oid point that something "is similar", "looks like" or just "is related or bordering with".

Both terms could be used as synonyms, that´s true, but with the sense of "European looks" (the original term was created to define exactly this), that can be misunderstood as you did, with the real meaning of the term, that is "native people from Caucasus".

It´s simple to understand if you notice that many people from Caucasus (Caucasians) are not exactly Caucasoid, because they show clear Mongoloid features.

But it´s not their fault, it´s the fault of a Central European man who created the term 3 centuries ago.

Native people from Caucasus points more towards Gerogian or Armenians more than to some other peoples from Caucasus that shows some clear "Mongoloid" features.

About this, I would agree with you, than many (probably most of them) Iranians (and also Kurds, and other ethnicities) have more "Caucasoid" look than some nowadays modern "Caucasian" peoples (specially North/Easterners).



Mongoloid=/=Mongolian
Caucasoid=/=Caucasian

Ok,

But I am broadening the narrative here. Agreed, Caucasians are people native to the Caucasus. While Iranics can be native people of the Caucasus, think of the Ossetians and Iranic Talysh, most Western Irnaics are just native to the northwestern parts of the Iranian Plateau that borders the Caucasus region.

Northwestern Iranic Talysh people are the closest people to the Kurds. They might even be closer to the Kurds than the Persians are, because Persians are Southwestern Iranic people. And Talysh live in the Caucasus, in Dagestan, and therefore also native people in the Caucasus. Same can be said about the Ossetians, who are not that close to the Kurds, since they are Eastern Iranics and are derived from the Scytho-Sarmatians. But nevertheless, also the Ossetians are native Caucasus people.

I have shown you some examples here that Iranics and Caucasians can overlap with each other.


Now on a greater scale, CHG, Iran_ChL and Iran_Neo are the most native components to Caucasus and the western Iranian Pleateu. CHG, Iran_ChL and Iran_Neo components are closely related to each other.

Western Iranics and the native people of the Caucasus are all derived from mostly CHG, Iran_ChL and Iran_Neo components. That makes them very similar to each other and make them actually part of the very same race.
You can call that CHG/Iran_ChL race whatever you are, but I call that race a true Caucasoid race, becausee that race is directly linked to the Caucasus.