Dalmatia and it's origin

[Wizz]

The name and it's origin is of J2b2-L283 proto-Albanoid:

The regional name Dalmatia has the same root as the tribal name Dalmatae and the toponym Delminium.[4][5][6] It is considered to be connected to the Albanian dele and its variants which include the Gheg form delmë, meaning "sheep", and to the Albanian term delmer, "shepherd".[7][8][9][10][11][12]

In Albania, Delvinë represents a toponym linked to the root *dele.[10]

Similar names among Illyrians also appear among Messapians who are connected to Albanian

11 J2b2-L283 found in Croatia from Iron Age / Bronze Age and R1b-L23:

1. J-L283 was fundamental to the formation of Illyrians or LBA/IA peoples of the western and part of the central Balkans if we don't want to be ultra-specific in the terms we use.

2. J-L283 was fundamental to the formation of Albanians

This would mean all three known J-Y21878 (TMRCA ~3800 ybp) subclades have now been confirmed in the western Balkans:

J-FT29003 in Mat/Dibër, Albania
J-Y32373 in Sanxhak + Bosnia
J-CTS11100>Y166564 in Slovenia + Northern Albania (the Albanian Hoti clan stems from here as you mentioned)

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....J2b-L283/page2

J2b2 L283 now confirmed as major Illyrian haplogroup:

I26726, 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 (B440-, Y37818-, Y1421-)
I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>?
I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241 (FT108123-, Y130843-, Y91418-, PH502-, Y86930-)
I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597 (Z2507-, FT29034-, FGC64029-)
I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

A proto-Albanoid population spread this Y-DNA and these names, related also to the Glasinac Iron Age culture of the Western Balkans and Messapian in Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasin...%20the%20north.


(Modern Albanians also have Thracian and Greek and other admixture of course before you start larping about clustering)

[Tongio]

Complicated to mix nationalism with y DNA study, althought i understand how tempting It is for albanians to do it (slavs claiming they are illiyrian is even worse), L283 was not native to the balkans, it migrated to there from central Europe/hungary , as It did also migrate to other parts of europe, likely with Bell beacker derived groups during the bronze age.At the time it was not specificaly "proto albanoid"lol,tho in the west balkans It happened they killed or unabled most native males tô reproduce, exactly as the slavs would proceed to do in the middle ages making some clades of L283 majority among proto illiyrian groups( albanian are mostly lackimg many of these lineages such as PH1602) .Also Albanians have significant diversity of L283 but most of you guys are together on Z638>>PH4679, wich points tô a recent founder effect being responsible for the 20-40% modern percentages,similar to Z631 among russian tatars.

[Wizz]

Complicated to mix nationalism with y DNA study, althought i understand how tempting It is for albanians to do it (slavs claiming they are illiyrian is even worse), L283 was not native to the balkans, it migrated to there from central Europe/hungary , as It did also migrate to other parts of europe, likely with Bell beacker derived groups during the bronze age.At the time it was not specificaly "proto albanoid"lol,tho in the west balkans It happened they killed or unabled most native males tô reproduce, exactly as the slavs would proceed to do in the middle ages making some clades of L283 majority among proto illiyrian groups( albanian are mostly lackimg many of these lineages such as PH1602) .Also Albanians have significant diversity of L283 but most of you guys are together on Z638>>PH4679, wich points tô a recent founder effect being responsible for the 20-40% modern percentages,similar to Z631 among russian tatars.

I am certainly not mixing anything. Albanians belong to the same branches as these Illyrians found, although most Albanians fall under the branch found in coastal area of Dalmatia. Those other branches could of died off, and only some branches could of survive. You forgot war, famine, diseases and various other things.

And yes, these people brought the proto-Albanian language if that's what you wanna call it. It is backed up by Archaeological evidence also. Such as Messapian also came from the Western Balkans related to Albanian. And the archaeological evidence shows that the Glasinac Iron Age culture in the Western Balkans is where Albanians came from. And the Hallstatt culture in Austria as shown by Coon

So yes, they brought proto-Albanian language or proto-proto-Albanian. Our people came from these populations together with some Dacian/Thracian from the steppes. They had possibly similar languages. Messpian came from these too.

You also forgot R1b-L23 / BY611 found in Croatia another common Albanian marker. These markers have been in the Balkans for thousands of years.

We are certainly not lacking any lineages. You are talking about branches. Most of our Y-DNA make up Illyrian and native Balkan such as EV-13. Certain branches mainly that are more common than other branches. I am not sure what makes you think a founder effect has happened in recent times when we have 11 J2b2-L283 already in the Iron Age together with R1b. You are talking about a founder effect among branches, maybe but certainly not Y-DNA themselves unless you're talking about EV-13.

There were also Thracians/Dacians from the steppes that settled the Western Balkans during the Iron Age.

[Varda]

The name and it's origin is of J2b2-L283 proto-Albanoid:






Similar names among Illyrians also appear among Messapians who are connected to Albanian

11 J2b2-L283 found in Croatia from Iron Age / Bronze Age and R1b-L23:






https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....J2b-L283/page2




A proto-Albanoid population spread this Y-DNA and these names, related also to the Glasinac Iron Age culture of the Western Balkans and Messapian in Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasin...%20the%20north.


(Modern Albanians also have Thracian and Greek and other admixture of course before you start larping about clustering)

Croatian singer from Luka Nižetić (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Nižetić) is J2b2-M241, he originated from Dalmatian island Brač by paternal line - number 19 https://i.ibb.co/61CSJLK/IMG-20220803-201115.jpg
Some Serbs and Bosniaks also carry J2b2-M241.

[Tongio]

Yes you most certainly are mixing L283 with nationalistic claims, no big deal, we non albanian L283s are used already with you guys´s albanocentric narrative and apropiation of ydna L283(this specific snp lol).
Anybody can go check the yfull, so i wont argue further about the illiyrian branches we have atested https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/.
Yes slavs killed out most of these branches, i am not saying Z638 could not have been illyrian, it very very likely was,tho we only do not have the archeogentic testament yet.

As i said Z615* was present among bell beackers, did the bell beackers spoke proto-albanian ? I dont think so, althought their language was ancestor to albanian(maybe?) so it was to
all of celtic and italic language families, so it is also proto italo celtic.

What makes me think of a recent founder effet of Z638>> PH4679 >> Y20899 ? Where most of albanians are(+50%,31 out of 57).Maybe you should examine yfull for the their TMRCA age:


I am talking about branches here and so are you, of course L283 is a branch of M241 that is a branch of M102.

[Wizz]

You have no idea what you're talking about and I'm not gonna waste my time with you.

One of the branches found in coastal areas of Croatia falls under the same branch as Albanians. There are also some other branches found among Albanians but which are not as common. There is also the Hoti branch found in Western Balkans/Slovenia, an Albanian tribe.

There is also R1b-L23 / R1b-BY611 found in the northern Balkans.

[Tongio]

You have no idea what you're talking about and I'm not gonna waste my time with you.

Dude after all information i presented this is your reply , quite ignorant and delusional.

[Wizz]

Farming was first introduced to Europe in the mid-seventh millennium BC, and was associated with migrants from Anatolia who settled in the southeast before spreading throughout Europe. Here, to understand the dynamics of this process, we analysed genome-wide ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between 12000 and 500 BC. We document a west–east cline of ancestry in indigenous hunter-gatherers and, in eastern Europe, the early stages in the formation of Bronze Age steppe ancestry. We show that the first farmers of northern and western Europe dispersed through southeastern Europe with limited hunter-gatherer admixture, but that some early groups in the southeast mixed extensively with hunter-gatherers without the sex-biased admixture that prevailed later in the north and west. We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

You are also digging way too deep in the past of pre-Indo European populations of the Balkans. We know there was Vinca culture. But the Balkans had steppe contact before any area of Europe. We don't know what happened to all the pre-Indo European people or if the area was that inhabited. There were hunter gatherers and then came Neolithic farmers and then Indo European people.

Also the R1b-Z2103 that was found dated back around 2000-3000 BC

The E1b-L618 goes to around 5000 BC

Vinca and others were pre-Historic populations then seem to of entirely disappeared, how is that compareable . There is some G found in Albanians. Some H, I etc

[Wizz]

Farming was first introduced to Europe in the mid-seventh millennium BC, and was associated with migrants from Anatolia who settled in the southeast before spreading throughout Europe. Here, to understand the dynamics of this process, we analysed genome-wide ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between 12000 and 500 BC. We document a west–east cline of ancestry in indigenous hunter-gatherers and, in eastern Europe, the early stages in the formation of Bronze Age steppe ancestry. We show that the first farmers of northern and western Europe dispersed through southeastern Europe with limited hunter-gatherer admixture, but that some early groups in the southeast mixed extensively with hunter-gatherers without the sex-biased admixture that prevailed later in the north and west. We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

You are also digging way too deep in the past of pre-Indo European populations of the Balkans. We know there was Vinca culture. But the Balkans had steppe contact before any area of Europe. We don't know what happened to all the pre-Indo European people or if the area was that inhabited. There were hunter gatherers and then came Neolithic farmers and then Indo European people.

Also the R1b-Z2103 that was found dated back around 2000-3000 BC

The E1b-L618 goes to around 5000 BC

Vinca and others were pre-Historic populations then seem to of entirely disappeared, how is that compareable. Thanks to Romans the Slavs stepped foot in the Balkans and many of the natives never disappeared but held their own in the mountains or Vlachs migrated around as nomads, You have also Greeks.. There is some G found in Albanians. Some H, I etc . Pre-IE assimilated into IE. Albanian language also has some non-IE influence.

[Insuperable]

Napoleon was Albanian.