Thoughts on the GDR?

[Teutone]

I just watched an interesting Interview with Erich Honecker, the defacto Dictator of the GDR from 1971 to 1989 and it made me think about the GDR.

I will make a Pro and Con list.

It will be interesting to see what other German members like Rothaer or Eastern Europeans like Rumata have to say on this matter.

What speaks for the GDR to me is following:

- No mass consumption and idealization of wealth among the general public
- Somewhat the nation gave you ideals and patriotism, but from what I have seen still combined with the guilt narrative, but quite less than in the FDR.
- Everyone was granted a job
- The population had a great sense of community and solidarity
- The NVA remained the Prussian military tradition unlike the Bundeswehr
- The GDR did not participate in any wars.
- The GDR had no significant mass immigration (even tho the reasons for that are certainly based on the economic situation of it)
- It was more restrictive towards pornography, sodomy and prostitution.


What speaks against the GDR, and it overshadows the Pros a lot:

- It was another puppet state just by another side.
- It killed many Germans just for their desire to leave the nation and the East German uprising of 1953 (This cannot be forgiven)
- The state wanted full control over children and the family, its systematically put women to the workforce and erased the tradition of the working father and housewife.
- It somewhat spread a multi-cultural internationalist mindset, but with a way less passion compared the the indoctrination we see now.
- It oppressed Religion and its influence, Christianity was part of the creation of the German cautiousness and greatness.
- As much as it promoted solidarity, in many cases it also encouraged to spy on your fellow compatriot.
- The entire ethos of the GDR was based around the Socialist Party and not the people, it had no vision of ethnic awareness.
- I would not consider the promoted art and architecture to be in line with the German spirit, it was somewhat degenerate, especially the architecture.
- As mentioned before, it had somewhat of a light feminist doctrine.
- It had way more relaxed abortion laws than west Germany until 1989.

Overall, the people of the GDR were blessed and punished by the socialization within that Country, but by today living in the GDR was a valuable lesson to them when it comes to be aware of propaganda, false narratives and promises.
The early FDR was more conservative but had a a much greater acceleration of liberal values once the population that was raised in the 3rd Reich were outnumbered by the baby boomers that were socialized within the liberal framework and absence of values such as solidarity, ethnic awareness, morality etc.

The people of the GDR could not know that this acceleration process in West German would continue to what Germany has become now, I dont blame them for their desire for unification and get rid of their regime, but they sadly landed in just another vassal state that by now is even worse in many aspects. I think it would have been better if they remained a independent nation, it could have been a country like Hungary now that would preserve our people.

The AfD of East Germany is generally very close to my social and economic views, almost heading to a Third Position orientation.

At the end most positive effects from the GDR on the East Germans nowadays were unintentional, yet they are there and they are better off than west Germans.

[Zohor]

Reading your arguments I had some wtf moments, for example putting similar arguments at opposite sites(good that everyone had a job, bad that women had a job and couldn't sit at home; more restrictive towards sodomy but had more relaxed abortion laws than West Germany) or ones don't make sense to me(no war prticipation but 1953 uprising - btw thanks to you I heard about it first time, if 1953 was not kind of a civil war I don't know what is it then, not to mention participation at 1968 Czechoslovakia invasion where GDR was also part of it; great sense of community is not thanks to fact than East Germany was isolated from the rest of Germany but because simply people back then had different mentality, in the 90s most likely people still had feel of community and solidarity as well, the fact they don't support your ideas doesn't mean they don't feel solidarity)

Apart from that I find East Germany mostly positive because for Poland these were the same stuff as today it is a place for shopping, job. Also I am glad East Germany didn't invade Poland even though the treatment of Germans in Poland after WWII was at least a disaster. But in general my knowledge on East Germany is very poor, so probably opinion of older members who remember these times would be more valuable

[sean]

It was a police state just like today, only difference is it was more racially homogeneous, commie, and had actual culture (people had the feeling the state cared about them and doesn't ignore them and wants to replace them). After all, the only immigrants were Slavs and students from Asia. Although it didn't get as much help from the USSR as the West did from the Marshall Plan, their government regularly kidnapped visitors from West Germany to demand ransoms in non-Soviet currencies in order to keep their population fed. The entire GDR economy was like the public sector of Greece, constantly bailed out by loans.

[Teutone]

(good that everyone had a job, bad that women had a job and couldn't sit at home)

It was good that every man was granted a job, I dont think its ideal if both parents need to have a job in order to feed a family.
No woman was forced to work, but every man technically had to work, it was just indoctrinated to the women that working will lead to their emancipation based on marxist ideals, so not sure where I contradict myself.

more restrictive towards sodomy but had more relaxed abortion laws than West Germany

Where is the contradiction? I find it positive that the GDR was more restrictive in regards to sodomy, prostitution and pornography but find it bad that it was more liberal on abortion.

ones don't make sense to me(no war prticipation but 1953 uprising - btw thanks to you I heard about it first time, if 1953 was not kind of a civil war I don't know what is it then, not to mention participation at 1968 Czechoslovakia invasion where GDR was also part of it

The GDR was limited to logistics support only, to me this is not a true participation in a war.

; great sense of community is not thanks to fact than East Germany was isolated from the rest of Germany but because simply people back then had different mentality, in the 90s most likely people still had feel of community and solidarity as well, the fact they don't support your ideas doesn't mean they don't feel solidarity)

Its not related to time, as West Germans were less collectivistic during that time. Generally every population from the former warsaw pact nation remains more collectivistic than the American vassal state counterparts. Which is logically given the ideals of both systems.

Individualism in Europe:



Greece, Spain and Portugal were much longer under the influence of a Illiberal political system.



Apart from that I find East Germany mostly positive because for Poland these were the same stuff as today it is a place for shopping, job. Also I am glad East Germany didn't invade Poland even though the treatment of Germans in Poland after WWII was at least a disaster. But in general my knowledge on East Germany is very poor, so probably opinion of older members who remember these times would be more valuable[/QUOTE]

[Tooting Carmen]

It was good that every man was granted a job, I dont think its ideal if both parents need to have a job in order to feed a family.
No woman was forced to work, but every man technically had to work, it was just indoctrinated to the women that working will lead to their emancipation based on marxist ideals, so not sure where I contradict myself.





Where is the contradiction? I find it positive that the GDR was more restrictive in regards to sodomy, prostitution and pornography but find it bad that it was more liberal on abortion.




The GDR was limited to logistics support only, to me this is not a true participation in a war.



Its not related to time, as West Germans were less collectivistic during that time. Generally every population from the former warsaw pact nation remains more collectivistic than the American vassal state counterparts. Which is logically given the ideals of both systems.

Individualism in Europe:



Greece, Spain and Portugal were much longer under the influence of a Illiberal political system.



Apart from that I find East Germany mostly positive because for Poland these were the same stuff as today it is a place for shopping, job. Also I am glad East Germany didn't invade Poland even though the treatment of Germans in Poland after WWII was at least a disaster. But in general my knowledge on East Germany is very poor, so probably opinion of older members who remember these times would be more valuable

The individualism vs collectivism dichotomy lacks nuance. Does that survey mostly measure economics, social attitudes or both? After all, one can support an overwhelmingly privatised, free-market economy while remaining highly collectivist when it comes to religion and the family. Conversely, one can be a social liberal or even libertarian while also supporting strong welfare/high taxation/widespread State ownership.

[Tooting Carmen]

The individualism vs collectivism dichotomy lacks nuance. Does that survey mostly measure economics, social attitudes or both? After all, one can support an overwhelmingly privatised, free-market economy while remaining highly collectivist when it comes to religion and the family. Conversely, one can be a social liberal or even libertarian while also supporting strong welfare/high taxation/widespread State ownership.

In any case, whatever their professed ideals, Eastern European countries (not least Russia itself) are often as bad if not worse than the West when it comes to rates of divorce, abortion, alcoholism and prostitution.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

The people that I know who have traveled through East Germany said that the infrastructure, generally, was very worn out. It didn't look great, was the impression. This was in the 2000s.

[Rumata]

Teutone
Your comparison looks objective to me. Unfortunately, I lack info on DDR to contribute to the discussion.

[Teutone]

The people that I know who have traveled through East Germany said that the infrastructure, generally, was very worn out. It didn't look great, was the impression. This was in the 2000s.

They sadly mostly promoted the ugliest and most destructive force of architecture, brutalism. By now they got rid of alot of concrete blocs I heard, and restored alot of the historical buildings, like the Frauenkirche in Dresden.

Completed 2005

[Atlantic Reptilian]

They sadly mostly promoted the ugliest and most destructive force of architecture, brutalism.

One of the most disgusting architecture styles.