Thoughts on the GDR?

[Rumata]

One of the most disgusting architecture styles.

I'd call it the anti-style. My city has some of this depressing garbage, fortunately it's not too common here. The modern skyscrapers are much more common and almost as ugly.

[Victor]

I'd call it the anti-style. My city has some of this depressing garbage, fortunately it's not too common here. The modern skyscrapers are much more common and almost as ugly.

I heard this shit started to appear in Krasnodar when people from other regions, especially from Russian North and Siberia started massive migration down there.

[Rumata]

I heard this shit started to appear in Krasnodar when people from other regions, especially from Russian North and Siberia started massive migration down there.

Skyscrapers? Sure they're mostly populated by migrants. But if not for migrants, developers would build them anyway to lower expenses. Well, it's way off-topic.

[noricum]

- No mass consumption and idealization of wealth among the general public [/B]

Agree, but since hey didn't have much, they couldn't have acted otherwise anyways.

- Somewhat the nation gave you ideals and patriotism, but from what I have seen still combined with the guilt narrative, but quite less than in the FDR.[/B]

Only in a communist way as a continuation of everything "progressive" / revolutionary in Germany history. All revolutionarys where us in GDR Propaganda fron Müntzer to Körner to the 20th july assasins.
Also the Slavic past of the areaof the GDR was pronounced, probably for the first ime in German history. And at least in my opinion dark haired people where preferred in GDR propaganda.

- Everyone was granted a job [/B]

A job. Not necessarily the job they wanted, or the school / university they wanted.

- The population had a great sense of community and solidarity [/B]

Yeah, to the degree that they had to build a mined wall to stop their own people from running away. The rest was left to spy on each other.

- The NVA remained the Prussian military tradition unlike the Bundeswehr [/B]

Superficially as in uniforms and military bands, yes. In terms of tactics, structure, -things that actually count in case of war- the opposite was true.
In these terms the NVA as a copy of the Soviet Army and the Bundeswehr was able to keep some German peculiarities.

- The GDR did not participate in any wars. [/B]

They where ready to roll into CSSR in 1968 and did send military advisors to various 3rd wordl countries such as Angola to support the MPLA.

- The GDR had no significant mass immigration (even tho the reasons for that are certainly based on the economic situation of it) [/B]

Well they had Vietnames and various Africans and Cubans but definately way less then in Western Germany.

- I would not consider the promoted art and architecture to be in line with the German spirit, it was somewhat degenerate, especially the architecture.[/B]

I think their GDR culture and architecture was fine for the time, but the fact that they had left potentially beautiful timber framed villages left to rot, is hard to forgive for me.
Then again it was a general spirit of the 50ies and 60ies that everythin old was seen in a negative light, within a communist system even more though than in the west.
I still think it's a crime that the Palast der Republik was torn down.

[rothaer]

I just watched an interesting Interview with Erich Honecker, the defacto Dictator of the GDR from 1971 to 1989 and it made me think about the GDR.

I will make a Pro and Con list.

It will be interesting to see what other German members like Rothaer or Eastern Europeans like Rumata have to say on this matter.

What speaks for the GDR to me is following:

- No mass consumption and idealization of wealth among the general public

True, but I don’t know whether I’d put that so much on the pro side. It was a North Korea-like deficiency in supply and you had after ordering a car wait for abt. 14 years and for a refrigerator abt. 6 years (not kidding). Waiting places in the queue were traded for money. A lot of beautiful buildings like palaces etc. got crumbled irrevocably due to the lack of sense for elevated wealth. F. i. the historic old town of Stralsund, which had survived WWII unscathed, was later torn down (!) for lack of funds and for lack of sense for such cultural values.

- Somewhat the nation gave you ideals and patriotism, but from what I have seen still combined with the guilt narrative, but quite less than in the FDR.

I agree and even more: I can not confirm a guilt narrative. The official GDR identified with the persecuted communists and with nothing that was done by the Third Reich. Zero guilt narrative as for what was done by nationalsocialism and „Nazis“ were said to all be in Western Germany only (which was not applicable, of course).

- Everyone was granted a job

True.

- The population had a great sense of community and solidarity

This was an impression, yes. More correct is maybe to say that they much collaborated and helped each other and this was not caused by any altruism, but by the necessity in the permanent supply crisis. Nevertheless this caused some sense of what you said, yes.

- The NVA remained the Prussian military tradition unlike the Bundeswehr

Absolutely true.

- The GDR did not participate in any wars.

True. But I’m not aware of that the FRG before the unification in 1990 took part in any military actions outside it’s territory either (not sure...). But after 1990 the unified FRG did, as we all know.

- The GDR had no significant mass immigration (even tho the reasons for that are certainly based on the economic situation of it)

True. And it has to be added that the various exotic foreign workers from Vietnam, Angola, Cuba etc (Vertragsarbeiter) were intentionally kept separated from the German population and that a meeting between the groups was tried to prevent and after the foreseen time for work in the GDR was over, nobody had the right to stay. So this whole point is actually pretty pro, close to a role model.

- It was more restrictive towards pornography, sodomy and prostitution.

True, somewhat, but I see no pro in that. I like pornography and I consider prostitution fine as well.

What speaks against the GDR, and it overshadows the Pros a lot:

- It was another puppet state just by another side.

True.

- It killed many Germans just for their desire to leave the nation and the East German uprising of 1953 (This cannot be forgiven)

True.

- The state wanted full control over children and the family, its systematically put women to the workforce and erased the tradition of the working father and housewife.

True. This is a big point imo.

- It somewhat spread a multi-cultural internationalist mindset, but with a way less passion compared the the indoctrination we see now.

Yes, but very weak and essentially just in non-obligating political ”head lines”. The whole practical procedure was pretty different and also the government tried to prevent any notable contacts between GDR Germans and other people, Western Germans as well as non-Germans from befriended communist countries.

- It oppressed Religion and its influence, Christianity was part of the creation of the German cautiousness and greatness.

True to the first. (I appreciate that all these abrahamitic and foreign to Europe religions that have caused so much suffering in our and other countries have lost much of their importance, but that’s another story that would here exceed the topic.)

- As much as it promoted solidarity, in many cases it also encouraged to spy on your fellow compatriot.

Yes, this was a very ugly thing. Some people have also been kind of blackmailed into spying and eventually even sometimes a wife spied against her husband and vice versa. Children in the kindergarten got the seemingly innocent task to paint the TV clock. But after the clocks looked different in the western and the eastern TV you could see who’s parents watched the enemy’s western TV channels. Etc. etc.

- The entire ethos of the GDR was based around the Socialist Party and not the people, it had no vision of ethnic awareness.

True.

- I would not consider the promoted art and architecture to be in line with the German spirit, it was somewhat degenerate, especially the architecture.

True.

- As mentioned before, it had somewhat of a light feminist doctrine.

Very light then.

- It had way more relaxed abortion laws than west Germany until 1989.

True. But I see no contra in that. Especially it was not connected to any lower reproduction rate. In contrast, the GDR Germans did not just reproduce well but it also permanently compensated notable parts of the reproduction deficiency of Western Germans by migration. The GDR faced a horrible population loss by migration and an even more horrible brain drain. This crisis forced the GDR to take effective measures against this, far beyond just locking up the whole population from 1961 on. There were a lot of good working motvations and conditions set that did work well as for the reproduction and that could be a role model for today as well. Also, though having a communist ideology that stated that all people are equal and only the environment makes the difference, the administrational people knew well of the importance of biological inheritance. So they very much encouraged university students to breed and they also organised especially good care takings of the children in the university context, so it got very comfortable and compatible to marry and have children while studying.

Overall, the people of the GDR were blessed and punished by the socialization within that Country, but by today living in the GDR was a valuable lesson to them when it comes to be aware of propaganda, false narratives and promises.

True. And a notable point.

The early FDR was more conservative but had a a much greater acceleration of liberal values once the population that was raised in the 3rd Reich were outnumbered by the baby boomers that were socialized within the liberal framework and absence of values such as solidarity, ethnic awareness, morality etc.

There was no real baby boom compared to earlier times of working reproduction, but indeed, the demographical fading away of the pre-68s by deaths led to an incredible political turn-around. I still sometimes must ask myslef if today’s crazyness is really happening or just a bad dream.

The people of the GDR could not know that this acceleration process in West German would continue to what Germany has become now, I dont blame them for their desire for unification and get rid of their regime, but they sadly landed in just another vassal state that by now is even worse in many aspects.

True.

I think it would have been better if they remained a independent nation, it could have been a country like Hungary now that would preserve our people.

I see your point, but I’ve big problems to befried with the idea to part my fatherland even more than it already is with a number of states in Germany (the German people area). Very complicated questions.

The AfD of East Germany is generally very close to my social and economic views, almost heading to a Third Position orientation.

I can join this assessment.

At the end most positive effects from the GDR on the East Germans nowadays were unintentional, yet they are there and they are better off than west Germans.

True and well analysed.

[rothaer]

(...)
I still think it's a crime that the Palast der Republik was torn down.

In GDR times also inofficially called "Ballast der Republik" (preferably pronounced in an Upper Saxon dialect).

But you know it was built on (a part of) the space of the Berliner Stadtschloß, that had been torn down? I've nothing against GDR remnants, but must it be there and at expense of the former Stadtschloß

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_Schloss

, which shall be (or is already?) rebuilt?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieder...iner_Schlosses

[Teutone]

What I wondery, maybe Rothaer can tell me some reasons.

How the hell did Honecker get into the position of leading the GDR and remained a leader untill 1989.

I never saw a less charismatic and fragile leader of a nation

His ability to hold speeches is also horrible, he has a very strong accent, a very weird voice and it sounds like he is cracking, and thats not just from footage of his later days.

[rothaer]

What I wondery, maybe Rothaer can tell me some reasons.

How the hell did Honecker get into the position of leading the GDR and remained a leader untill 1989.

I never saw a less charismatic and fragile leader of a nation

His ability to hold speeches is also horrible, he has a very strong accent, a very weird voice and it sounds like he is cracking, and thats not just from footage of his later days.

A very legit question. The level of most people in the Politbüro was stunning low. Have a look for the others. Even Erich Mielke was pretty simple and primitive. Also Egon Krenz is stunning simple. More intelligible people you had somewhat farther down with Markus Wolf and Alexander Schalck-Golodkowski, but there were not that many, actually.

As for your question: Honecker was promoted and protected by his predesessor Walter Ulbricht, maybe even because he seemed not very skilled and thus not dangerous as a competitor. But when Ulbricht eventually got very unpopular and a bad standing in the party, Honecker - in the meantime in kind of in the second highest position - figuratively stabbed him from behind and took his place.

[Tooting Carmen]

A very legit question. The level of most people in the Politbüro was stunning low. Have a look for the others. Even Erich Mielke was pretty simple and primitive. Also Egon Krenz is stunning simple. More intelligible people you had somewhat farther down with Markus Wolf and Alexander Schalck-Golodkowski, but there were not that many, actually.

But as for your question: Honecker was promoted and protected by his predesessor Walter Ulbricht, maybe even because he seemed not very skilled and thus not dangerous as a competitor. But when Ulbricht got very unpopular and a bad standing in the party, Honecker - in the meantime in kind of in the second highest position - figuratively stabbed him from behind and then took his place.

As a side note: were Krenz and Ulbricht of Jewish descent? They certainly looked it.

[rothaer]

As a side note: were Krenz and Ulbricht of Jewish descent? They certainly looked it.

Krenz and Ulbricht not, but Markus Wolf (Chief of Staatssicherheit (Stasi)) and Politbüro member Hermann Axen. Klaus Gysi was of half Jewish descent and his son Gregor Gysi, who got chief of the communist party in the late GDR and is an politician in the successor party "Die Linke", is of something like 35% Jewish descent, an odd proportion that adds up from both parents.

Maybe noteworthy: None of these four acted in a politically "Jewish", Israel-friendly or anti-German way. I also think that none of them had a self-identification that went in that direction.