Southern Arc: Myceneans super Southern shifted.

[kingmob]

What's going on here with the southern arc, guise?





Myceneans with 20%+ CHG? 18.5%+ Levant_PPN? A mere 4.1% EHG?


Is this a conspiracy by the enemies of the modern Greeks to turn their glorious ancestors into some sort of semi-Anatolian half-breeds?


How can they plot so close to BA Anatolia????

fst(prefix, pop1 = "GRC_Mycenaean_BA", pop2 = c("GRC_Logkas_MBA", "BGR_TellKran_EBA", "BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA", "TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA", "TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA", "BGR_Smyadovo_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_MLBA", "BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA", "BGR_Diamandievo_IA", "BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA", "BGR_Boyanovo_EBA", "ALB_MBA", "ALB_Çinamak_EBA", "MKD_BA"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ SouthernArc_Public.geno has 5940 samples and 1233013 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 83 samples in 16 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 296 MB
1233k SNPs read...
✔ 1233013 SNPs read in total
! 7689 SNPs remain after filtering. 6303 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 7689 SNPs and 16 populations is 2 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 49 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 49 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 15 × 4
   pop1             pop2                      est      se
   <chr>            <chr>                   <dbl>   <dbl>
 1 GRC_Mycenaean_BA ALB_Çinamak_EBA        0.541  0.00574
 2 GRC_Mycenaean_BA ALB_MBA                0.525  0.00591
 3 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA    0.504  0.00628
 4 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Boyanovo_EBA       0.414  0.00760
 5 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Diamandievo_IA     0.526  0.00540
 6 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA   0.196  0.00653
 7 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_EBA     0.525  0.00578
 8 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_MLBA    0.537  0.00546
 9 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Smyadovo_EBA       0.305  0.00747
10 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA     0.275  0.00729
11 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_TellKran_EBA       0.183  0.00583
12 GRC_Mycenaean_BA GRC_Logkas_MBA         0.194  0.00605
13 GRC_Mycenaean_BA MKD_BA                 0.523  0.00591
14 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA   0.107  0.00439
15 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA 0.0552 0.00240

Will the Vlachobulgarians, sorry, the "mainland Greeks" stand for such an injustice????

[Guti]

Personally I think that the ancient Mycenaeans were similar to the ancient Hittites and other extinct Indo-Anatolians.

I don't understand why they think that the Mycenaeans took the western root and entered Greece from the western parts of the Black Sea. While they could also be related to Trialeti people similar to the Armenians. Because they do more or less embrace the existence of a Graeco-Armenian language family, since according to them Greek and Armenian derived directly from the Yamnaya.


The Southern Arc paper is not fully successful in my eyes and doesn't give answers to many questions.


I think it was on purpose, because more papers will come and I do expect that we will see in the future more attention on the Iranian Plateau by Harvard.

[Nmiito]

Because Slavic migrations had not taken place yet. Ancient Greeks are best represented in modern Cypriots.

[kingmob]

I think it was on purpose, because more papers will come and I do expect that we will see in the future more attention on the Iranian Plateau by Harvard.

I also believe that, it was like a first "warning shot" to see what kind of reaction they will get and count their "enemies" (in academia, ofc) so to speak. It's common theme in academic circles.

I think they have much more than they let out.

I also think Reich himself wouldn't give Lazaridis such a monumental discovery as a freebie, why not get all the glory himself?

[zebruh]

What's going on here with the southern arc, guise?





Myceneans with 20%+ CHG? 18.5%+ Levant_PPN? A mere 4.1% EHG?


Is this a conspiracy by the enemies of the modern Greeks to turn their glorious ancestors into some sort of semi-Anatolian half-breeds?


How can they plot so close to BA Anatolia????

fst(prefix, pop1 = "GRC_Mycenaean_BA", pop2 = c("GRC_Logkas_MBA", "BGR_TellKran_EBA", "BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA", "TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA", "TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA", "BGR_Smyadovo_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_MLBA", "BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA", "BGR_Diamandievo_IA", "BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA", "BGR_Boyanovo_EBA", "ALB_MBA", "ALB_Çinamak_EBA", "MKD_BA"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
 Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
 SouthernArc_Public.geno has 5940 samples and 1233013 SNPs
 Calculating allele frequencies from 83 samples in 16 populations
 Expected size of allele frequency data: 296 MB
1233k SNPs read...
 1233013 SNPs read in total
! 7689 SNPs remain after filtering. 6303 are polymorphic.
 Allele frequency matrix for 7689 SNPs and 16 populations is 2 MB
 Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 49 MB RAM without splitting
 Computing without splitting since 49 < 8000 (maxmem)...
 Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 15 × 4
   pop1             pop2                      est      se
   <chr>            <chr>                   <dbl>   <dbl>
 1 GRC_Mycenaean_BA ALB_Çinamak_EBA        0.541  0.00574
 2 GRC_Mycenaean_BA ALB_MBA                0.525  0.00591
 3 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA    0.504  0.00628
 4 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Boyanovo_EBA       0.414  0.00760
 5 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Diamandievo_IA     0.526  0.00540
 6 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA   0.196  0.00653
 7 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_EBA     0.525  0.00578
 8 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_MLBA    0.537  0.00546
 9 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Smyadovo_EBA       0.305  0.00747
10 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA     0.275  0.00729
11 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_TellKran_EBA       0.183  0.00583
12 GRC_Mycenaean_BA GRC_Logkas_MBA         0.194  0.00605
13 GRC_Mycenaean_BA MKD_BA                 0.523  0.00591
14 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA   0.107  0.00439
15 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA 0.0552 0.00240

Will the Vlachobulgarians, sorry, the "mainland Greeks" stand for such an injustice????

How would they not? Its been obvious ancient greeks have some related origins from anatolia. They mixed with peoples from the agean. The indigenous people of the agean before greeks had roots from anatolia and greeks mixed them. Even herodotus was not full greek. He was half carian from anatolia.

According to Herodotus, the Carians were named after an eponymous Car, a legendary early king and a brother of Lydus and Mysus, also eponymous founders respectively of Lydians and Mysians and all sons of Atys.[9]

Homer records that Miletus (later an Ionian city), together with the mountain of Phthries, the river Maeander and the crests of Mount Mycale were held by the Carians at the time of the Trojan War and that the Carians, qualified by the poet as being of incomprehensible speech, joined the Trojans against the Achaeans under the leadership of Nastes, brother of Amphimachos ("he who fights both ways") and son of Nomion. These figures appear only in the Iliad and in a list in Dares of Phrygia's epitome of the Trojan War.

Classical Greeks would often claim that part of Caria to the north was originally colonized by Ionian Greeks before the Dorians.

The Greek goddess Hecate possibly originated among the Carians.[10] Indeed, most theophoric names invoking Hecate, such as Hecataeus or Hecatomnus, the father of Mausolus, are attested in Caria.[11]

The Carians were often linked by Greek writers to the Leleges, but the exact nature of the relationship between Carians and Leleges remains mysterious. The two groups seem to have been distinct, but later intermingled with each other. Strabo wrote that they were so intermingled that they were often confounded with each other.[12] However, Athenaeus stated that the Leleges stood in relation to the Carians as the Helots stood to the Lacedaemonians.[13] This confusion of the two peoples is found also in Herodotus, who wrote that the Carians, when they were allegedly living amid the Cyclades, were known as Leleges.[9]

[zebruh]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carians

The Greek historian Herodotus recorded that Carians themselves believed to be aborigines of Caria but they were also, by general consensus of ancient sources, a maritime people before being gradually pushed inland.[5] Plutarch mentions the Carians as being referred to as "cocks" by the Persians on account of their wearing crests on their helmets; the epithet was expressed in the form of a Persian privilege when a Carian soldier responsible for killing Cyrus the Younger was rewarded by Artaxerxes II (r. 405/404–359/358 BC) with the honor of leading the Persian army with a golden cock on the point of his spear.[6]

According to Thucydides, it was largely the Carians who settled the Cyclades prior to the Minoans. The Middle Bronze Age (MMI–MMII) expansion of the Minoans into this region seems to have come at their expense. Intending to secure revenue in the Cyclades, Minos of Knossos established a navy with which he established his first colonies by taking control of the Hellenic sea and ruling over the Cyclades. In doing so, Minos expelled the Carians, many of which had turned to piracy as a way of life. During the Athenian purification of Delos,[clarification needed] all graves were exhumed and it was found that more than half were Carians (identified by the style of arms and the method of interment).[7]

According to Strabo, Carians, of all the "barbarians", had a particular tendency to intermingle with the Greeks,

"This was particularly the case with the Carians, for, although the other peoples were not yet having very much intercourse with the Greeks nor even trying to live in Hellenic fashion or to learn our language ... yet the Carians roamed throughout the whole of Greece serving on expeditions for pay. ... and when they were driven thence [from the islands] into Asia, even here they were unable to live apart from the Greeks, I mean when the Ionians and Dorians later crossed over to Asia." (Strabo 14.2.28)

Indeed, the term barbarian was coined by Homer in reference to the Carians speaking an unintelligible language.[8]

[catgeorge]

Anatolian komplexes doesn't correspond with the construction of the proto Greek language

[kingmob]

Anatolian komplexes doesn't correspond with the construction of the proto Greek language

I should really stop messing with you, it's bad form to tease the handicapped.

[Joachim]

What's going on here with the southern arc, guise?





Myceneans with 20%+ CHG? 18.5%+ Levant_PPN? A mere 4.1% EHG?


Is this a conspiracy by the enemies of the modern Greeks to turn their glorious ancestors into some sort of semi-Anatolian half-breeds?


How can they plot so close to BA Anatolia????

fst(prefix, pop1 = "GRC_Mycenaean_BA", pop2 = c("GRC_Logkas_MBA", "BGR_TellKran_EBA", "BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA", "TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA", "TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA", "BGR_Smyadovo_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_MLBA", "BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA", "BGR_Diamandievo_IA", "BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA", "BGR_Boyanovo_EBA", "ALB_MBA", "ALB_Çinamak_EBA", "MKD_BA"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ SouthernArc_Public.geno has 5940 samples and 1233013 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 83 samples in 16 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 296 MB
1233k SNPs read...
✔ 1233013 SNPs read in total
! 7689 SNPs remain after filtering. 6303 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 7689 SNPs and 16 populations is 2 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 49 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 49 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 15 × 4
   pop1             pop2                      est      se
   <chr>            <chr>                   <dbl>   <dbl>
 1 GRC_Mycenaean_BA ALB_Çinamak_EBA        0.541  0.00574
 2 GRC_Mycenaean_BA ALB_MBA                0.525  0.00591
 3 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA    0.504  0.00628
 4 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Boyanovo_EBA       0.414  0.00760
 5 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Diamandievo_IA     0.526  0.00540
 6 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA   0.196  0.00653
 7 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_EBA     0.525  0.00578
 8 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_MLBA    0.537  0.00546
 9 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Smyadovo_EBA       0.305  0.00747
10 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA     0.275  0.00729
11 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_TellKran_EBA       0.183  0.00583
12 GRC_Mycenaean_BA GRC_Logkas_MBA         0.194  0.00605
13 GRC_Mycenaean_BA MKD_BA                 0.523  0.00591
14 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA   0.107  0.00439
15 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA 0.0552 0.00240

Will the Vlachobulgarians, sorry, the "mainland Greeks" stand for such an injustice????

Everybody knows ancient Greeks came from anatolia.
I am not talking about Neolithic Greeks since Greeks don't descend from them but rather they Descend from bronze age and copper age Anatolian immigrants and invaders with 40-50% chg/iranN which replaced the pure Neolithic Sardinian like people of Neolithic greece who lacked chg/iranN
And during and after the copper age, Neolithic greeks were invaded and replaced by chalcolithic anatolians with 40-50% chg/iranN admixture.
Greeks are a near eastern East med people after all considering their genetic profile.

And yes,bronze age anatolians and myceneans and minoans descened from the same genetic stock which was a mix of Neolithic anatolia+ chg/iranN + 4-5% red sea/natufian and 10-12% steppe yamnaya.
I find it funny when mainland greeks abuse and insult anatolians considering that ancient Greeks themselves descened from bronze and copper age Anatolian migrants

[Joachim]

There's also a genetic study which mentions this,it was posted by Peter nemets on twitter about how Neolithic people with Sardinian like profile was invaded by copper age anatolians who were half Sardinian/anatolian bur half chg/iranN too which was a new Ancestry in Anatolia.
These people replaced the Neolithic Sardinian like Greeks as the their chg component didn't get diluted by mixing but rather persisted which hints at genetic replacement.
Then successive anatolian migratons happened in bronze age bringing in myceneans and minoans.