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Thread: When the Spaniards planned to conquer China in the 16th Century

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    Default When the Spaniards planned to conquer China in the 16th Century




    In the spring of 1583 a board specially appointed by General Ronquillo met in Manila to discuss "the enterprise of China".
    There was some disagreement about the legitimate right of the King of Spain to embark on a conquest of this nature. Bishop Salazar initiated what he called a juridical-theological process that would produce a plan for a conquest, which he sent to the pope. The governor wrote that in his opinion conquering China would present "little difficulty." He proposed that eight thousand soldiers be recruited.
    It is only fair to point out that many Spanish colonists did not like dreams of conflict spreading through the archipelago.

    The Portuguese, annexed by the Spanish after the death of their last independent monarch, thought the war would damage trade and the Portuguese Jesuits, who had much more experience in the Orient, tried to distance themselves from their Spanish colleagues.
    However, in the spring of 1586 the religious community in the Philippines gave strong support to the idea of conquest. The president of the Audiencia convened general meetings of all the religious brotherhoods of the archipelago. The clerics argued that China could be taken for Spanish benefit with an army of between ten and twelve thousand men, led by the governor of the Philippines. This army could be formed in any of the king's domains, but the religious leaders thought it preferable to have Basques. Six thousand Japanese would be easy to raise and five hundred African slaves would help. Much attention had to be given to the necessary weapons. Money would have to be available to bribe some mandarins.

    The resolutions of this extraordinary meeting concluded with an indication of the large number of new encomiendas to be established in China, not to mention a new set of judges, dukes, marquises and viceroys to be appointed. From the beginning, intermarriage with the Chinese would be encouraged, because Chinese women were "serious, honest, retiring and faithful and honorable subjects of their husbands and usually of great grace, beauty and discretion." The leaders of the orders thought that after the conquest of China would come the conquest of India, Cochinchina, Cambodia, Siam and the Moluccas, Borneo and Sumatra.
    Soon volunteer soldiers began to arrive in Manila, coming from New Spain and even Cuba, while the daimyō Komidshi Yukanga offered six thousand men to act in China or Borneo. Francisco de Luján led the Cubans. If things had gone well, perhaps Luján would have become the marquis of the Yellow River.
    Alonso Sanchez was appointed procurator of the orders in the Philippines and returned to Spain to offer an assessment of the possibilities to Philip II.


    Wanli, the Ming emperor of that period

    The monarch saw Alonso Sanchez three times. As was customary on such occasions, he appointed a committee to study the recommendations that had come from Manila. It was a fine team of illustrious men. During their deliberations Alonso Sanchez, who had not lost his sense of proportion, saw that the news of the defeat of the Invincible Armada in August 1588 demanded that some time elapse before the king could think of another great maritime expedition. Claudio Aquaviva, superior general of the Society of Jesus, begged Sanchez to go to Rome to discuss the matter with the pope. He did so, although he had to see four pontiffs, because Sixtus V, Gregory XIV, Innocent IX and Clement VII quickly succeeded each other in office.

    The idea of a military expedition aimed at conquering China was never explicitly abandoned. But nothing was done either. Like the great civil servant he was, Philip II thought that procrastination and silence were the correct reaction to the ideas of the Philippine governors and their religious allies. High officials do not answer letters if they do not know what to say.
    Thus the great opportunity was lost. Christianity did not become the dominant religion in China, as it had been in New Spain.


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    The current Spanish army and the King if they attempt it now, it will be a totally different scenario. The Asian powers have amassed huge trade surplus and have huge stock pile of arms/ammunition and nukes. It will be fireworks on a different scale
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    the whole plan stems from spanish arrogance at the time, they had conquered most of a continent (Américas), they had humiliated the french in the italian wars, Had the best European army at the time(Some may speak of the Ottomans but technically for me the Spaniards in the period were of higher quality with the Ottomans having the advantage of having an army 2,3,4 times larger than their enemies), They had one of the best navies in the world, and they were the empire where the sun never set.

    Several times the colonial government of the Philippines tried to encourage Spanish expansionism in East Asia, Often suggesting the conquest of china, Even when Japan banned Catholicism, in the Philippines there was talk of an invasion of Japan, They even proposed this to a Christian daymio who took refuge in the Philippines takayama ukon But he rejected, Of course, these conversations mainly about China did not go ahead, the empire was already super extensive (Not to mention the various wars in these periods against the French, Protestants and Turks.) and they could not afford an invasion of that size, So Philip II and his successors wisely swept these ideas under the rug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seiya2000 View Post
    the whole plan stems from spanish arrogance at the time, they had conquered most of a continent (Américas), they had humiliated the french in the italian wars, Had the best European army at the time(Some may speak of the Ottomans but technically for me the Spaniards in the period were of higher quality with the Ottomans having the advantage of having an army 2,3,4 times larger than their enemies), They had one of the best navies in the world, and they were the empire where the sun never set.

    Several times the colonial government of the Philippines tried to encourage Spanish expansionism in East Asia, Often suggesting the conquest of china, Even when Japan banned Catholicism, in the Philippines there was talk of an invasion of Japan, They even proposed this to a Christian daymio who took refuge in the Philippines takayama ukon But he rejected, Of course, these conversations mainly about China did not go ahead, the empire was already super extensive (Not to mention the various wars in these periods against the French, Protestants and Turks.) and they could not afford an invasion of that size, So Philip II and his successors wisely swept these ideas under the rug.
    wow... finally someone that knows about the history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    The current Spanish army and the King if they attempt it now, it will be a totally different scenario. The Asian powers have amassed huge trade surplus and have huge stock pile of arms/ammunition and nukes. It will be fireworks on a different scale
    If the British empire could dominate them with a drug and their trade, the Spanish empire would have achieved it without problems except for one, the number of troops but suppose they had had the troops, China would have been history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seiya2000 View Post
    the whole plan stems from spanish arrogance at the time, they had conquered most of a continent (Américas), they had humiliated the french in the italian wars, Had the best European army at the time(Some may speak of the Ottomans but technically for me the Spaniards in the period were of higher quality with the Ottomans having the advantage of having an army 2,3,4 times larger than their enemies), They had one of the best navies in the world, and they were the empire where the sun never set.

    Several times the colonial government of the Philippines tried to encourage Spanish expansionism in East Asia, Often suggesting the conquest of china, Even when Japan banned Catholicism, in the Philippines there was talk of an invasion of Japan, They even proposed this to a Christian daymio who took refuge in the Philippines takayama ukon But he rejected, Of course, these conversations mainly about China did not go ahead, the empire was already super extensive (Not to mention the various wars in these periods against the French, Protestants and Turks.) and they could not afford an invasion of that size, So Philip II and his successors wisely swept these ideas under the rug.
    Actually, an invasion of Japan by the Spanish empire would have been interesting, I think the Dutch were going to try but they backed down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggery View Post
    If the British empire could dominate them with a drug and their trade, the Spanish empire would have achieved it without problems except for one, the number of troops but suppose they had had the troops, China would have been history.
    well the battle of oirat (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis) shows that china cannot or will always win with numbers, China has always had a history of poor quality armies in times of crisis.

    the biggest problem for Spain would be that they don't have the resources for this undertaking That Spain was unable to spend at the time, the situation is very different from the conquest of the Americas where they just defeated their main and historic rival (the moors), And they had no enemies And they had enough time to organize campaigns in the Americas, In the case of China, the empire is already very large, which demands a lot of resources and the empire is involved in many wars, How to defend Catholicism against Protestants, Europe more specifically the Mediterranean against the Turks, and fight against the greed and rancor of the French.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seiya2000 View Post
    well the battle of oirat (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis) shows that china cannot or will always win with numbers, China has always had a history of poor quality armies in times of crisis.

    the biggest problem for Spain would be that they don't have the resources for this undertaking That Spain was unable to spend at the time, the situation is very different from the conquest of the Americas where they just defeated their main and historic rival (the moors), And they had no enemies And they had enough time to organize campaigns in the Americas, In the case of China, the empire is already very large, which demands a lot of resources and the empire is involved in many wars, How to defend Catholicism against Protestants, Europe more specifically the Mediterranean against the Turks, and fight against the greed and rancor of the French.
    Well, in that battle we are talking about the Mongols, the Asian Romans (at the level of battle tactics).

    On the contrary, with the power that Spain had, it would have been easy to defeat the Chinese army, but they had to defend other territories and the empire had more priorities than conquering China.

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    Another misconception that bothers me Is that part of the Spanish history they teach as If their truly goal was to spread Christianity to the new world, When In reality their goal was to empowered themselves with gold or exploit someone else resources.

    At least In regard to "New Spain" case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggery View Post
    If the British empire could dominate them with a drug and their trade, the Spanish empire would have achieved it without problems except for one, the number of troops but suppose they had had the troops, China would have been history.
    That's because brits were more trade oriented, while spaniards were more extraction oriented. They had an outpost in today's Taiwan though, but it was ceded to the dutch. It would have been really interesting to see the spanish version of a Macau or Hong Kong.

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